Hell

[Mick]

I go back and forth between eternal conscious hell and conditional immortality (eventual annihilation). I would like to hear what verse(s) convince you of your belief in this matter. I can see both sides but, of course, both can't be true. What do you say?

I am new here and this is my first post so if you don't hear from me again it means I am lost and trying to find my way around.

God bless,
Mick

[onewithhim]

How does that not relate to what I said? The man might lose his life if he continued to place the ephemeral ahead of the eternal. Right?

The man WILL lose his life whatever he gets up to. The suggestion is that the SOUL is something beyond his corporeal frame and through sin can be lost. You are resolved not to accept the anima as separate from the corpus. I don't accept the phrase from Genesis as proof that soul means body - nor do billions of others.

Which group did Jesus say was on the road to life? The MANY that are on the broad road? Or the FEW that are on the narrow road?

"Billions of others" may be wrong.

[onewithhim]

Nothing suggests that Adam and Eve will not also, later, enter back into Paradise and eat from the Tree of Life, and so live forever.

Maybe, but the thief on the cross was with Him in paradise that day... Job says that on his death he will return from whence he came - and unless you think he meant his mother's womb or that he meant annihilation, then he meant to return to Him in the paradise part of Sheol. To be with Him in such a sense is to partake of Him...

Jesus wasn't in paradise that day.

And Job returned to dust.

You are correct, myth-one. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to get it that the thief couldn't have been with Jesus in paradise on that day because Jesus died and was in his grave for three more days! No, the thief said to remember him when Jesus "gets into his Kingdom," having the idea that that would be sometime in the future, which is indeed true. The thief would be in the earthly paradise, and Jesus would be "with" him just as he is "with" his followers today. (Matt. 28:20)

I pointed out what the verse in Job means to truscott months ago, and I see he is still insisting on that erroneous idea that people come from some other place before they are born. There is no paradise part of Sheol!!! Where does that come from? Sheol is THE GRAVE, period. No parts or levels.

I don't recall where truscott is referring to in Job, so I'm looking up "return" in my Concordance. Job says that he shall return to his mother's womb (Job 1:21)....which we know did not happen. Just poetic license. Then he says to God, "to dust you will make me return." (Job 10:9) The only other verse I can presently find that Job was saying anything about returning is Job 34:15 where he says "All flesh will expire together, and man will return to the very dust." All I can gather is that Job knew what the Scriptures say about how God created man---from the dust---and he thus knew how he would end up after he died. I can't remember what scripture I was discussing with truscott.

[tam]

Nothing suggests that Adam and Eve will not also, later, enter back into Paradise and eat from the Tree of Life, and so live forever.

Maybe, but the thief on the cross was with Him in paradise that day... Job says that on his death he will return from whence he came - and unless you think he meant his mother's womb or that he meant annihilation, then he meant to return to Him in the paradise part of Sheol. To be with Him in such a sense is to partake of Him...

What paradise part of Sheol?

Paradise is not in Sheol. We do not go to Sheol in order to eat from the Tree of Life (which is in the Paradise of God).


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[marco]

Something eternal cannot be lost!

You think not? The soul condemned to hell has lost heaven: "suffer the loss of one's eternal soul." If you think the soul is not eternal, of course, it is lost on death. But that makes Christ's meaning problematic.


Which is what the Bible states:

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son (a man) shall not bear the iniquity of the father( a man), neither shall the father( a man) bear the iniquity of the son ( a man):

It is an amusing exercise to find in Bible and Koran one verse that contradicts another. Try these:



Exodus 34:7 - visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].

Numbers 14:18 - The LORD [is] longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing [the guilty], visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation].

Deuteronomy 5:9 - Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me,

Only God and the angels are eternal spirits.
Once a human is born again of the spirit and becomes equal unto the angels, he or she becomes eternal ..........

Another way of looking at the soul I suppose. Some innocents think man gains his "wings"; others think he is transformed into an eternal spirit; still others believe that man possesses a soul that can be "lost to sin" just as Christ said. But maybe Christ was wrong.

[myth-one.com]

Something eternal cannot be lost!

You think not? The soul condemned to hell has lost heaven: "suffer the loss of one's eternal soul." If you think the soul is not eternal, of course, it is lost on death.

The soul is not eternal.

But that makes Christ's meaning problematic.

How so?

Only God and the angels are eternal spirits.
Once a human is born again of the spirit and becomes equal unto the angels, he or she becomes eternal ..........

Another way of looking at the soul I suppose. Some innocents think man gains his "wings"; others think he is transformed into an eternal spirit; still others believe that man possesses a soul that can be "lost to sin" just as Christ said. But maybe Christ was wrong.

Man was created mortal like all the other physical beings.

Man is different from the other animals in that he man gain everlasting life.

That is the entire theme of the Bible.
============================================================================

What man says about man is typically unsupported in the Bible.

Man creates myths around his fears. Man fears things which he does not understand, the unknown. Mankind's most obvious fear is death. Death is the one thing we cannot try out on a test basis. You are either dead or alive. Furthermore, you cannot discuss death with someone who has experienced it. Those who claim otherwise are charlatans! The scriptures state that the dead know absolutely nothing. Since the dead know knowing, they certainly do not know how to talk! Therefore, death is an unknown and we fear it.

We treat our fear of death with the defense mechanism of denial. That is, we deny it. We say we will live forever, thus taking on godly characteristics.

In the Old Testament, the scriptures inspired by God used the Hebrew word "nephesh" when referring to both man and other animals.

In their effort to improve on the inspired words of God, translators decided to translate this one word into multiple words, thus the word "soul" was created to distinguish between man and animals and assign a false "immortality" to man.

[marco]

The soul is not eternal.

Many think it is. I wonder if we'll ever find out. The Bible seems to suggest it is.

But that makes Christ's meaning problematic.

How so?

Gain the world - suffer the loss of one's soul suggests that pursuit of worldly things and doing evil destroys something we have. Clearly this doesn't relate to our life, since we lose that whether we are good or bad. He means that we kill the spiritual part of us.

Man was created mortal like all the other physical beings.

Yes, obviously man dies. The Bible suggests there's more to existence than simply losing one's life. It is easiest to suppose we have a soul that survives us. If God had wanted us to know more, he'd have been clearer. He wasn't. If we want to follow the Bible it's maybe wise to follow Christ.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 115 by marco]


"Yes, obviously man dies. The Bible suggests there's more to existence than simply losing one's life. It is easiest to suppose we have a soul that survives us."

'And man became a living soul'; anything 'livining' will survive.

Can not agree with - 'we have a soul that survives us'.
We are the soul and as such we survive.

[myth-one.com]

The soul is not eternal.

The Bible seems to suggest it is.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

[onewithhim]

The soul is not eternal.

The Bible seems to suggest it is.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Yes...according to the Bible book of Ezekiel the soul can die, therefore it is not immortal. There's nothing hard to understand about that.

.

[Mick]

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Yes...according to the Bible book of Ezekiel the soul can die, therefore it is not immortal. There's nothing hard to understand about that.[/quote]

Yes...according to the Bible book of Ezekiel the soul can die, therefore it is not immortal. There's nothing hard to understand about that.

Also,
1) Adam and Eve were removed from the Garden so that they couldn't eat from the Tree Of Life and live forever - Gen. 3:22.
2) Rom. 2:7 says that believers seek immortality.
3) Believers put on immortality at the resurrection - 1 Cor. 15:53-4
4) 1 Tim. 6:16 tells us that only God is immortal.

God bless,
Mick