Christian 'Drop-outs'

[OpenYourEyes]

For Discussion or Debate:
How to prevent Christians from dropping out of the faith?

How to respond to Christians who have already dropped out of the faith?
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Just to elaborate on some terms and why I started this thread...
A Christian drop-out stems from the same idea of high school drop-out, in that both groups left something prematurely. The Christian drop-out leaves Christianity usually due to some problem or conflict that they encounter with their belief system and then they give up prematurely. I think most people are accustomed to hearing about and assuming that many atheists leave the faith based on rational reasons but then when I press them I find that many of the key factors that should be considered in the decision are missing. There tends to be a lack of proper understanding of God and the Bible, a lack of familiarity with Christian apologetics, and even on conducting research into their objections. As such, I tend to not spend much time answering their every objection and instead I help lay a foundation for them (in their thinking) where they can find the answers themselves because all the main problem boils down to is a problem dealing with doubt.

One recent example is of a former Christian who drew a negative conclusion about some aspect of Christianity based on an inadequate answer that their professor told them. Apparently, this person considered asking a teacher as being sufficient to deal with their doubt since their response came after my questioning of whatever research they've done on the matter. Ironically, this person dropped out of their class on religion. Notice here no real effort was put in to look for answers either because the person didn't know how and where to look or this person just gave up. This is very common sign/pattern of someone who doesn't know how to deal with doubt.

[RonE]

Hi RonE. I appreciate you inviting to participate in your thread but one question that pops into my head right off the bat is:

1. Have you done any research on how science relates to Christianity or vice-versa?

I ask this because it is of my experience that had you done some research, or enough good research, you would not be surprised and would even EXPECT for there not to be much corroboration between the two fields. This is why I always remind people (Zzyzx, Danmark, JoeyKnotHead, etc) that learning about science does NOT make you an expert about religion and that you need to understand BOTH (or even a multi-disciplinary approach) to keep them into proper perspective.

I'm quite sure that others on this forum know much more about christianity than I. And I am equally sure that others know more about science than I. Whether my knowledge of the two is sufficient, whether my knowledge of one side compliments/offsets/conflicts with the other side is an open issue. Something maybe we will learn in our future exchanges.

The purpose of my topic is to test a debate theory, not an unusual motivation on this site I'm sure. I will just say that I am exploring, obviously, theists ability to defend their claims of their god being supernatural, having supernatural powers. Supernatural meaning characteristics attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

I started with an idea of where the topic would lead, and so far it hasn't, but it is early yet. So please think about the supernatural characteristics you believe your god has and tell me how you think science could support them. Post them here or in my topic I'll watch for them.

[JLB32168]

What I was talking about is that some people come in here, don't debate, don't care if they convince anyone, and tell us they don't even care about our immortal souls.

Speaking for myself, on this board most skeptics are former Christians who aren’t the least bit in returning to the faith and they are quite adversarial in nature. I can’t be bothered with convincing them since their adamantine wills are already set and Christ warned against it anyway. If this rock solid rejection is coupled with derisive belittlement of my faith then it’s really silly to ask me to invest much in caring about what they say.

If that's true, gee wilikers, I have to wonder what some Christians ARE here for, exactly?

I can’t speak for “some Christians� but my reasons for debating here are hardly a secret.

[Danmark]

What I was talking about is that some people come in here, don't debate, don't care if they convince anyone, and tell us they don't even care about our immortal souls.

Speaking for myself, on this board most skeptics are former Christians who aren’t the least bit in returning to the faith and they are quite adversarial in nature. I can’t be bothered with convincing them since their adamantine wills are already set and Christ warned against it anyway. If this rock solid rejection is coupled with derisive belittlement of my faith then it’s really silly to ask me to invest much in caring about what they say.

If that's true, gee wilikers, I have to wonder what some Christians ARE here for, exactly?

I can’t speak for “some Christians� but my reasons for debating here are hardly a secret.

Whether or not you 'care' about what others say is not relevant in a debate. Marshaling facts that support your arguments is what counts. You haven't done that. You have failed to offer facts to support your argument for your point of view, which appears to be that you believe something about the supernatural and have disdain for those who don't agree with your unsupported belief.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 106 by JLB32168]

What I was talking about is that some people come in here, don't debate, don't care if they convince anyone, and tell us they don't even care about our immortal souls.

Speaking for myself, on this board most skeptics are former Christians who aren’t the least bit in returning to the faith and they are quite adversarial in nature.

I'm one of those. I am your debate adversary.
At your service.

I can’t be bothered with convincing them since their adamantine wills are already set and Christ warned against it anyway.

Ok, so........... you aren't trying to convince one of us.
Are you trying to convince anyone else?

If this rock solid rejection is coupled with derisive belittlement of my faith then it’s really silly to ask me to invest much in caring about what they say.

What about caring about what YOU say?
Care to debate those things?

If that's true, gee wilikers, I have to wonder what some Christians ARE here for, exactly?

I can’t speak for “some Christians� but my reasons for debating here are hardly a secret.

Well, I think you said it was to keep us rascals from "asking questions in bad faith"?

Is that IT?

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 106:

...
If this rock solid rejection is coupled with derisive belittlement of my faith then it’s really silly to ask me to invest much in caring about what they say.
...

I propose if the holy text regarding one's faith presents nothing but "derisive belittlement" for non-believers, well how 'bout that.

"Y'all don't do y'all no derisive belittlement, but do enjoy this here holy text I have that sets out just how to do it!"

For centuries, even millenia, atheists have been "derisively belittled" to the point of death based on the unproven, unprovable claims of theists.

Now that it gets turned back on 'em, well that's just rude!

[OnceConvinced]

I chose to take the latter approach, and just as I expected, NOT ONE former Christian turned atheist so far on this thread has been willing to admit that they left Christianity due to a lack of research, assuming that they researched at all.

Why would anyone admit to a lack of research if there wasn't a lack of research?

Of course, if they want to give off an image of being 'rational' in dropping the faith, how could they admit to such a thing?

So I guess we all must be liars then?

Perhaps the reality is people have very sensible and rational reasons for no longer believing and you just don't want to admit that they do?

One atheist member who participated on this thread drew a conclusion that Christianity was sexist.

I now see the bible as sexist. I never did as a Christian though. I was blind to its sexism. It wasn't until I took off the rose-coloured glasses and broke free from the bubble that I saw it.

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 39 by OpenYourEyes]

Also, keep in mind that my point does not apply to all former Christians. It only applies to those who left the faith prematurely or due to unreasonable reasons.

Hello! I have been reading through the posts on this forum, and this one sentence, caught my eye.

My friend, I seriously doubt that anyone wakes up in the morning intending to walk away from Christianity or any other religion, and as a matter of fact, I would bet that most had difficulty in walking away. Some, have grown up in homes where people in their families have been Christians for generations. Admitting to their mother that they no longer walk in the faith, would be very difficult. My point is, I believe that most thought about it....a LOT!! I don't think it was a decision based on being unreasonable, or flawed reasoning in general. I believe it was well thought out on their part, but they remained unconvinced...
....

Thanks! That is RIGHT on the money. It was very difficult for me to leave my faith.

For me it was the most difficult and painful experience I ever had to endure and it took five years before I finally came to peace with it.

I fought and fought against my disbelief. In fact I would be happy even today to believe it all again, but I simply can't possibly convince myself to believe what I now see as fantasy. 40 years of research have brought me to where I am today. It is sad. It was very heartbreaking. There are many things I lost as well as my faith.

Some Christians just don't seem to get it. At least people like Peds can.

[Danmark]

But really the biggest problem for christianity is the inability to provide solid, credible, science based proof of their god. If you want to take a swing at that proposition I have a topic running right now for just that purpose. In this sub-forum the topic is Proof of the christian god.

I actually posted in your thread but I deleted it out of respect for your topic so I'll move my post here instead...

[Replying to post 1 by RonE]

Hi RonE. I appreciate you inviting to participate in your thread but one question that pops into my head right off the bat is:

1. Have you done any research on how science relates to Christianity or vice-versa?

I ask this because it is of my experience that had you done some research, or enough good research, you would not be surprised and would even EXPECT for there not to be much corroboration between the two fields. This is why I always remind people (Zzyzx, Danmark, JoeyKnotHead, etc) that learning about science does NOT make you an expert about religion and that you need to understand BOTH (or even a multi-disciplinary approach) to keep them into proper perspective.

This is naive and presumptuous. Why would you think that some would think knowledge of science = knowledge of religion? Many people here have much knowledge of both of these fields. Who, besides you, has suggested that having scientific knowledge means one also has knowledge of religion?

[Zzyzx]

.

Have you done any research on how science relates to Christianity or vice-versa?

This is why I always remind people (Zzyzx, Danmark, JoeyKnotHead, etc) that learning about science does NOT make you an expert about religion and that you need to understand BOTH (or even a multi-disciplinary approach) to keep them into proper perspective.

I do not recall you saying anything like that to me. Perhaps I missed it. When and where did such reminders appear?

Who among us has that “proper perspective�? Many Apologists seem to think that study of religion / Christianity / ancient texts qualifies them as “experts� (or at least very knowledgeable) regarding scientific matters. Is it a one-way street – study religion / Christianity and you don't need to study science to have proper perspective – study science and you need to study religion / Christianity to have proper perspective.

Why is knowledge of religion / Christianity required to evaluate CLAIMS (statements / stories) told as true that conflict with what is known of the real world?

If, for instance, someone (of any theistic position) claims that the Earth stopped rotating (“sun stood still�) for hours and resumed rotating WHAT theology is needed to evaluate the merits / truth / accuracy of the claim?

Expand that to include CLAIMS that donkeys and snakes conversed in human language, or that long-dead bodies returned to life, or that the Earth was flooded “to the tops of mountains�, WHAT knowledge of theology is needed to evaluate those claims?

A truthful answer is that NO knowledge of religion or Christianity is needed to evaluate those CLAIMS. Study of religion / Christianity is only needed to attempt to "explain" or excuse them with fanciful stories and NO verifiable evidence.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 103 by OpenYourEyes]

1. Have you done any research on how science relates to Christianity or vice-versa?

Let's take a hypothetical that is a little absurd. Let's pretend that there's a man who is age 40. We'll call him Joe. Joe has a PhD in cosmology. When it comes to the origin of the universe, Big Bang, stellar evolution, physics etc he knows basically as much as humanity knows on the subject at this time.
Joe though, has never been a Christian. He has never once felt the slightest desire to go into a church or to open up a Bible. He has never read a single Christian text in his life. He is very well schooled in logic, philosophy, and can usually spot flaws in arguments.

Now imagine you and he sit down at a nice cafe and have a discussion. Why should Joe give your Bible tales of creator gods, demons, angels, global floods ANY credence whatsoever? When you say "Jesus died and was resurrected", why should Joe give mere tales of that happening any plausibility whatsoever?