Evidence for the Resurrection

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Goose

Evidence for the Resurrection

Post #1

Post by Goose »

In my opinion, when determining the truthfulness of Christianity virtually everything is secondary in importance to the resurrection of Jesus Christ (the Rez). Paul made this clear when he said in 1 Corinthians 15:14, "if Christ has not been raised, then our message means nothing and your faith means nothing." I believe the truthfulness of Christianity hangs primarily on the Rez.

I also believe there is a solid case for the Rez that meets a reasonable burden of proof for matters of history. Equal, at least, to that which we accept for other pivotal events in ancient history accepted as true and rarely questioned.

As indicated by the spectrum of the below quoted scholars and historians, I propose we can be reasonably certain some historical "facts" are probably true regardless of our philosophical predispositions. We can then look at theories that account for those facts.

The Methodology:

A "fact" shouldn't necessarily need to pass all of the listed criteria to be considered probable. Failing any one particular criterion does not necessarily make the fact false. Indeed very few, if any at all, ancient historical "facts" we rarely question would adequately pass all the requests of such a rigorous criteria as set out below. However, a fact that fails to pass a single criterion we would be justified in believing it to be improbable. Passing one or two should be sufficient to have the "fact" be at least considered probable. If a fact passes three I think we can be confident that it is very probable and so on. This methodology is not fool-proof of course as it is open to our biases and ultimately subjective to a degree. However, this seems to be the only way (I know of) to establish a reasonably objective treatment of evidence - i.e. pass the evidence through a standard set of criteria using a consistent methodology that can be applied to ALL ancient events. So, using criteria such as (but not limited to)...
  • 1. Eyewitness attestation
    2. Early attestation (the earlier the better - written during the lifetime of possible eyewitnesses is preferred)
    3. Multiple independent attestation (independent does not mean non-Christian, but rather independent from other sources)
    4. Enemy or neutral source attestation
    5. The Principle of Embarrassment (If it's embarrassing or harmful to the case it is very likely that it is authentic or actually happened. It's very unlikely to have been propaganda simply “made up”)
Marcus J. Borg, a liberal theologian and "fellow" of the Jesus Seminar wrote, "The logic is straightforward: if a tradition appears in an early source and in another independent source, then not only is it early, but it is also unlikely to have been made up." Marcus J. Borg and N. T. Wright, The Meaning of Jesus (1999), p. 12.

Historian Paul Maier notes, "Many facts from antiquity rest on just one ancient source, while two or three sources in agreement generally render the fact unimpeachable." Paul L. Maier, In the Fullness of Time: A Historian Looks a Christmas, Easter, and the Early Church (1991), p. 197.


As a side note, I’m confident we can reconcile alleged contradictions in the NT, demonstrate traditional authorship of the Gospels/Acts (i.g. The disciple Matthew wrote the Gospel of Matthew and so on. Just as we would for any other ancient document, see here ), and demonstrate the synoptics were written before 70AD. However, we'll forgo debate over the preceding to avoid rabbit trails and make it more of a challenge for the Rez theory. So, for the sake of argument in this thread we will assume:
  • 1. The Bible is errant and not inspired by God. We'll consider it merely a collection of ancient writings.
    2. The Gospels/Acts are technically anonymous and may or may not be eyewitness accounts.
    3. The Gospels and other Christian/non-Christian accounts contain minor errors and contradictions in secondary details.
    4. The Gospels/Acts were written after 70AD, but no later than 100AD.
    5. Mark was the first Gospel written. The authors of Luke and Matthew used some of Mark as a source for their Gospels.

We could submit many, but to start, here are 5 "facts" that should pass enough of the listed criteria to be considered probable:

FACT 1. Jesus’ crucifixion and death
  • a) Early (and enemy) attestation from the Apostle Paul - (1 Thessalonians 5:9-10, 2:15; 1 Corinthians 1:23, 2:2 and early creedal passages in 1 Corinthians 15:3 - ca. 50-60AD)
    b) Multiple attestation in all four Gospels and the Book of Acts (ca. 70-100AD)
    c) Enemy/neutral attestation from Jewish historian Josephus (Antiquities 18:64 - 96AD)
    d) Enemy/neutral attestation from Roman historian Tacitus (Annals 15:44 - ca. 115AD)
    e) Enemy/neutral attestation from Greek satirical writer Lucian (The Death of Peregrine, 11-13 - ca. 150AD)
    f) Enemy/neutral attestation from Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a - ca. 200AD)
    g) Principle of Embarrassment applies to the humiliating suffering and death of a supposed Messiah and the Son of God (as well as Principle of Dissimilarity from Jewish anticipation of a military type leader in the Messiah).
Atheist NT scholar Gerd Lüdemann acknowledged, "Jesus' death as a consequence of crucifixion is indisputable." Gerd Ludemann, The Resurrection of Christ, pg 50.

The critical NT scholar and Jesus Seminar co-founder John Dominic Crossan wrote, "Jesus’ death by execution under Pontius Pilate is as sure as anything historical can ever be. For, if no follower of Jesus had written anything for one hundred years after his crucifixion, we would still know about him from two authors not among his supporters. Their names are Flavius Josephus and Cornelius Tacitus...We have, in other words, not just Christian witnesses but one major Jewish and one major pagan historian who both agree on three points concerning Jesus: there was a movement, there was an execution because of that movement, but, despite that execution, there was a continuation of the movement." John Dominic Crossan, Who Killed Jesus?, pg. 5

Crossan also said, "Despite the differences between the studied impartiality of Josephus and the sneering partiality of Tacitus, they agree on three rather basic facts. First, there was some sort of a movement connected with Jesus. Second, he was executed by official authority presumably to stop the movement. Third, rather than being stopped, the movement continued to spread. There remain, therefore, these three: movement, execution, continuation. But the greatest of these is continuation." John Dominic Crossan, The Essential Jesus, p. 7.

John P. Meier wrote, "For two obvious reasons practically no one would deny the fact that Jesus was executed by crucifixion: (1) This central event is reported or alluded to not only by the vast majority of NT authors, but also by Josephus and Tacitus...(2) Such an embarrassing event created a major obstacle to converting Jews and Gentiles alike...that the Church struggled to overcome..." (John P. Meier, "The Circle of the Twelve: Did It Exist during Jesus' Public Ministry?", Journal of Biblical Literature 116 [1997] p. 664–665).


FACT 2. The tomb was discovered empty.
  • a) Early attestation from Paul - he implies an empty tomb (1 Cor. 15:3-4)
    b) Multiple attestation from all four Gospels (the very early Pre-Markan Passion source probably contained the empty tomb)
    c) The disciples were accused of stealing Jesus’ body by unbelieving Jews - indirect enemy confirmation that the tomb was empty (Matthew 28, Christian apologist Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho 108 - ca. 150AD; Christian apologist Tertullian De Spectaculis 30 - ca. 200AD)
    d) The principle of embarrassment applies to the empty tomb reported as having been discovered by women
    e) We have no record of Jesus’ corpse being produced only accusations that the disciples stole the body.
    f) Setting the stage for the empty tomb was the honourable burial of Jesus by Joseph of Arimethea (another fact we could admit as number 6 - but won't as it isn't really necessary to do so). It is attested by all four Gospels. As well Paul mentions the burial of Jesus(1 Cor 15). It also is strengthened by the Principle of Embarrassment where a Jewish member of the council, rather than a disciple or family member, that condemned Jesus was reported as honourably burring Jesus. This would have been offensive to the disciples and as such is unlikely to be a fabrication.
Liberal theologian John A. T. Robinson commented on the burial of Jesus, "[it is] one of the earliest and best–attested facts about Jesus." John A. T. Robinson, The Human Face of God (1973), p. 131.

William Wand, a past Oxford University church historian wrote, "All the strictly historical evidence we have is in favour [of the empty tomb], and those scholars who reject it ought to recognize that they do so on some other grounds than that of scientific history." William Wand, Christianity: A Historical Religion? (1972), p. 93-94

NT critic D. H. Van Daalen wrote, "It is extremely difficult to object to the empty tomb on historical grounds; those who deny it do so on the basis of theological or philosophical assumptions." D.H. Van Daalen, The Real Resurrection(1972), p. 41.


FACT 3. The apostles sincerely believed Jesus rose from the dead and then appeared to them. So sincerely that some were willing to endure persecution and possibly even death because of this belief:

Claims of appearances to the disciples:
  • a) Early (and enemy) attestation from Paul (1 Cor. 15:4-8)
    b) Multiple attestation from all four Gospels (even without the later addition of 16:9-20, early attestation in Mark's Gospel predicts the Rez and appearances in 8:31, 9:31, 10:34 and suggests there will be appearances made by Jesus 14:28, 16:6-7)
    c) Multiple attestation from the Book of Acts (ch. 1-5, 10, 13, 17)
    d) Possible neutral/enemy attestation from Tacitus (he may be inadvertently providing evidence that the apostles at least believed Jesus appeared to them in Annals 15:44 when he says, "...[Christianity] thus checked for the moment [by the crucifixion of Jesus], again broke out not only in Judea...")
    e) Possible neutral/enemy attestation from Josephus (he may be reporting that the disciples at least believed Jesus appeared to them in Antiquities 18)
    f) The Principle of Dissimilarity applies to the notion of a man/Messiah resurrecting from the dead before the end of time was contrary to Jewish belief and therefore reduces the odds it was "made up."
    g) Principle of Embarrassment applies to the evidence that some disciples at the first instance did not believe but had doubts that Jesus was alive (Matthew 28:17, Luke 24:36-38, John 20:24-25).



Persecution and death of some disciples:
  • a) Early attestation from the Book of Acts (ch. 12 - death of James brother of John)
    b) Early attestation from Clement of Rome (1 Clement 5 - ca. 95AD)
    c) Attestation from Ignatius (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 3:2-3 - ca. 110AD)
    d) Attestation from Polycarp (Letter to the Philippians 9 - ca. 110AD)
    e) Attestation from Dionysius of Corinth (ca. 170AD - quoted by Eusebius Ecclesiastical History 2:25:8)
    f) Attestation from Tertullian (Scorpiace 15 - ca. 200AD)
    g) Attestation from Origen (Contra Celsum 2:56,77 - ca. 230-250AD)
Atheist NT scholar Gerd Ludemann said, "It may be taken as historically certain that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus' death in which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ." Gerd Ludemann, What Really Happened to Jesus? A Historical Approach to the Resurrection, (1995) p. 80. (It should be noted Ludemann believes these were visions)

Paula Fredriksen, a sceptical historian and scholar of religious studies, said in an interview with Peter Jennings (ABC) entitled The Search for Jesus in July 2000, "I know in [the disciples] own terms what they saw was the raised Jesus. That's what they say and then all the historic evidence we have afterwards attest to their conviction that that's what they saw. I'm not saying that they really did see the raised Jesus. I wasn't there. I don't know what they saw. But I do know that as a historian that they must have seen something."



FACT 4. Paul, an enemy and persecutor of the church (Acts 8:3, 1 Cor. 15:9, Gal. 1:13) was transformed and became a prolific apostle because of his belief that a risen Jesus appeared to him. He was persecuted and reported as martyred.

Appearances of Jesus to Paul and his conversion:
  • a) Early, multiple and eyewitness attestation from Paul himself (1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1, Phil. 3)
    b) Multiple and early attestation from the Book of Acts (ch. 9, 22, 26)
Paul’s suffering/martyrdom:
  • a) Early, multiple and eyewitness attestation from Paul for his suffering (2 Cor. 11, Phil. 1)
    b) Multiple and early attestation from Book of Acts (ch. 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 21, 23)
    c) Early attestation from Clement of Rome (1 Clement 5)
    d) Attestation from Polycarp (Letter to the Philippians 9:2)
    e) Attestation from Tertullian (Scorpiace 15 and also quoted by Eusebius in Ecclesiastical History 2:25:8)
    f) Attestation from Dionysius of Corinth (c. 170AD - quoted by Eusebius in EH 2:25:8)
    g) Attestation from Origen (Commentary on Genesis as quoted by Eusebius in EH 3:1)
FACT 5. James, brother of Jesus (Mark 6:3) and sceptic of His claims before the appearance of Jesus to him, was transformed and became a leader in the Church in Jerusalem. He was reported as martyred.
  • a) Principle of Embarrassment applies as Jesus' own family and brother James were described as sceptical prior to appearances (multiply attested - Matthew 13:57, Mark 3:21, 6:3-4, John 7:4-5)
    b) Jesus appeared alive to James after His death (early and enemy attestation from Paul - 1 Cor. 15:7)
    c) James is later described as an apostle by Paul(Gal 1:19) and leader in the early church in Jerusalem (Gal 2:9,12 and Acts 15)
    d) Suffered and martyred - Enemy/neutral attestation from Josephus (ca. 96AD - Antiquities 20), further multiple attestation from Hegesippus (ca. 160AD - as quoted by Eusebius in Ecclesiastical History 2:23), and Clement of Alexandria (ca. 180-200AD as quoted by Eusebius in EH 2:1).

Note that none of these 5 facts are supernatural or hard to believe on their own. They are all well attested with early and multiple sources. By any reasonable historical methodology these should be considered solid facts. Keep in mind on their own each fact presented does not build a strong case for the Rez. However, it is as a collective unit we must consider the evidence. We are looking for the best explanation that accounts for ALL the evidence. I posit the theory that God resurrected Jesus from the dead best accounts for ALL the evidence and combines explanatory power and scope given the context of Jesus' life and the claims made of Him and by Him.

Question for debate: Is the Resurrection the best explanation for ALL the evidence (i.e. the five facts presented)? Or, is there a better competing theory that accounts for ALL the evidence?


Additional considerations and requests:
1. Persons who side with the weight of evidence, what the evidence suggests, and cogent arguments supported by good evidence could be described as taking a rational position. We would be justified in deeming "irrational" a position that denies evidence with out good reason and opposes strong arguments to side with weak unsupported arguments. On this, we can all agree.

2. As history deals more with degrees of probability rather than absolute certainty I would suggest the following. A single theory that has explanatory scope and power, given the context of surrounding events, and accounts for ALL the evidence should be considered more probable over a compilation of several theories stacked upon one another in an ad hoc manner. Especially if those ad hoc theories are speculation rich and evidence poor.

3. Please supply the methodology/criteria for questioning any one of these 5 facts (or any other evidence one wishes to refute or admit for consideration). We can then apply this methodology to other ancient historical facts. This will help us determine if the objection has credibility or is merely stemming from a bias against either the supernatural or Christianity. Simply making the objection, for example, that we cannot trust anything written by a Christian because they were biased is very problematic. Applying that overly simplistic criterion to the rest of ancient history would call almost all of it into question (even most of modern history).

I'll look forward to reading the responses. O:)

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Post #101

Post by stevencarrwork »

It is also interesting that all the earliest Christian creeds, as found in Paul's letters, make no mention of a resurrected Jesus walking the earth.

Perhaps it was low down on the list of important things to learn when becoming a Christian.

In fact, Paul knew exactly what happened to corpses, which is why he pleads in Romans 7:24 to be rescued from his body.

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Post #102

Post by Cathar1950 »

stevencarrwork wrote:It is also interesting that all the earliest Christian creeds, as found in Paul's letters, make no mention of a resurrected Jesus walking the earth.

Perhaps it was low down on the list of important things to learn when becoming a Christian.

In fact, Paul knew exactly what happened to corpses, which is why he pleads in Romans 7:24 to be rescued from his body.
As one scholar points out, Paul seems to be using Egyptian symbols of the Resurrection from the Osiris myths. He is depicted as a mummy with a corn(plant) stalk growing out of him. There are also scholars that place some of the gospels after the second Jewish war.
I still find it odd that we are suppose to explain the Resurrection as it is part of the story line created by Mark with little information and frightened women that didn't bother to tell anyone and embellished by the others. One scholar explains the Family of Jesus not thinking he was mad but overworked. Given the leadership of the Jerusalem assembly where family seems to have founded a dynasty and Paul was on the outs. I see no reason to not think Mark was trying to lower the status of the family of Jesus in favor of Gentiles as well as his disciples much as Paul did.

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Post #103

Post by TMMaria »

Zzyzx wrote:.
TMMaria wrote:We can only smile and be sympathetic and pity our unbelieving brothers and sisters to have to go through life accepting and seeing only things limited to what science can explain. Wouldn't we know it, the Lawgiver of those laws of nature Himself change the rules as He wish...but there are those still too much into the letters of the laws to not see the Lawgiver Himself.
Emphasis added: That statement is pure religious elitism and a false claim of superiority for believers over non-believers. THAT attitude makes enemies from those who were neutral. Is it your objective to make enemies by a condescending and elitist attitude?

It is also blatant hypocrisy for those who claim to “follow Christ” to act with very un-Christlike elitism.

Is it impossible for many religionists to comprehend that they are NOT superior by virtue of their beliefs? Is indoctrination so thorough that elitism is unavoidable?
How can I expect you to understand the virtue of humility when you lack the "eyes of faith"? While men of the world compare and measure who's superior and inferior, and pride themselves in whose better than who in intellecct....people of faith understands one thing: if I have any talents, it's given to me by the Lord. We are but worthless servants, there is nothing to be proud of how superior we are...we are not any more holy, faithful, hopeful, intelligent than others. For all those goodness comes from God, we are noboby and have nothing to boast about. So please don't mistake my confidence in God for my superiority...I'm not anymore than you. It's God who place me where I am with my given talents or resources or ability to reason...I am but a humble, nobody who knows my own nothingness and I'm willing to cooperate with God to be an instrument. God giveth, God taketh. I may have dazzling intellect today, and nothing tomorrow by but a tiniest rupture of the nerve. How weak and fragile we all are!!

We have the understanding that the human family is essentially one Body. That some are given special gifts to serve others, there is no need to compare: how comes God gives so and so much more than so and so. In the end, the gifts are complementary. God gives some gifts to some and other gifts to others.

I'm sorry to hear your analysis of what is elitism. But humility is accepting what God gives...God gives great faith to some, that even at childhood years they already possess such wisdom and understanding of the mysteries of God (that was not my case)...while others struggle most of their lives in agnoticism or atheism (this would be me.)
wrote:
TMMaria wrote:
The Duke of Vandals wrote:We discount the supernatural because what you call supernatural claims I see as simply being unsupported scientific claims.
No...you're right. You with the unbelieving mind would not be able to see what we can see with the eyes of faith.
Or, “we with the ‘eyes of faith’ are willing to believe whatever we are told by our chosen clerics”.
Quote what you wish. Believe whatever you like to feel better about why you lack the gift of faith. You are endowed with the same ability to reason as any of us who have faith...in this life, from your earliest years of education somebody is always telling you something about how this world was created, what's the purpose for your very existence. You can chose whoever you believe to have the "Words" of life. You reason out things by what books you read, what articles you research, people you've met...and apply it to your very own experience and vision of things just like anyone else. That you see with different eyes than believers...doesn't mean you possess superior reasoning ability...to assume believers believe because they "are told by chosen clierics" sounds to me you're assuming believers are so inferior to you to as not be able to think for themselves and that their beliefs should be discarded as mere unthinking opinions.

I'm very sorry to hear that. I happen to not believe you are any less than any believers in thinking abilities you possess...just that you lack the cooperation and readiness to accept Grace...most of all the grace of faith.
wrote:
TMMaria wrote:While you place so much faith into only things that can be explained by science...we see enough evidence and accept there are events which are above the laws of nature.
We who “place so much faith into only things that can be explained by science” also often use what is known as “common sense” to decide whether a tall tale being told squares with the real world. “Miracle” tales don’t pass the test of common sense OR science – only “faith” and “believe on faith alone”.
So you believe believers lack "common sense"? Sorry to hear that. But it is an unjust assessment to assume that believers lack common sense. Sorry to inform you that believers have the same ability to learn science and observe the laws of nature as you do...but we also can discern when there are occurrence that happen beyond the laws of nature...such as an incurable terminal cancer remitting at the instance of prayer. There's no need to pass the test of science... a lot of things don't pass the test of science. Why would you want a miracle operating outside the laws of nature to pass the laws of nature observable to mere creatures?...Thank God for His marvelous wonders. For someone who is sick and dying and that doctors have given up hope, that a prayer provided the healing which comes from Higher Power is all he remembers.


wrote:
TMMaria wrote:We with the eyes of faith in God do see the effects in abundance far exceeds the power of natural forces, which takes place instantaneously without the means or processes which nature employs in our life.
Can instances of “effects in abundance far exceeds the power of natural forces” be cited, or are they invisible or imaginary or without known effect?
Believe what you wish...it's your choice how you would like to understand this life.
wrote:
TMMaria wrote:Do you think God would leave us orphan...to be always wondering about those miracles of the two thousand years long ago and not having anything today to confirm and strengthen our belief?
We “of little faith” make our own way in the world and our own decisions. We do not feel a need for an invisible “father figure” to “lead us”.
That's again is your choice...sorry to hear you would go through life lacking such a dimension of love, a Relationship that gives immeasurable hope and happiness.
wrote:
TMMaria wrote:No, He's involve in our everyday lives...and knows even the hair that fall from our head. He makes His presnece known...in our reasoning... in our seeing the odds against evil things crushing on us on all sides in this life are always turning out favorably...
“Always turning out favorably”? Do invisible super beings insure that things always turn out favorably for those who worship them? Do they also make good things happen for those who do not worship them?

Ask and it shall be given...He gives it not just in ways we know good for us...but in ways He Knows what's good for us. When it comes to decide what's good for me, I prefer that He decides.

Perhaps you have missed Jesus' message to all of us: Why haven't you ask from our Father anything....go ahead ask and it shall be given. For what father would give rocks if His children ask for bread?

And just so you'll know, we ask through the gift of prayers not only for ourselves but also for our unbelieving brothers and sisters as well. Our gift of prayer is for the benefit of all. Perhaps you remember in the Bible, Job interceded for God's forgiveness on his two friends?

Out of mercy, God pours forth immeasurable graces and love to you even if you don't know or love Him back. But certainly, it's even more when you ask...so that you'll experience His Love. Ask not only for yourself but out of love for others as well. The question is have you bother to ask?

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Post #104

Post by TMMaria »

Zzyzx wrote:.
TMMaria wrote:We can only smile and be sympathetic and pity our unbelieving brothers and sisters to have to go through life accepting and seeing only things limited to what science can explain. Wouldn't we know it, the Lawgiver of those laws of nature Himself change the rules as He wish...but there are those still too much into the letters of the laws to not see the Lawgiver Himself.
Is it your objective to make enemies by a condescending and elitist attitude?
Are there people out there in the habit of making others their enemies because of the statement: "you have my sympathy, you have my pity?" Are there people out there in the habit of making enemies of people who disagree and present a different belief from theirs?

If it is so...then how much more would mankind needs Jesus's prescription for healing of the divisions amongst the human race: Love thy enemies.

If it is your objective to love your enemy, then I have the assurance that at least I'm an enemy that's loved...don't you think so?

While you discern a different spirit, a spirit of condescension, I'd like for you to know that when I use the phrase "sympathy" and "pity"... it is meant to be in the same spirit that Jesus Christ looked at a wealthy young man who desires to have the kingdom of Heaven...it was conveyed the young man went out of his way to be righteous but must have felt something amissed when he asked Jesus for advice on what else he must do.

Jesus looked at him with pity (and certainly profound love) when Jesus said, "Sell all that you have and follow me."

Jesus asked him to distribute all his wealth and to empty himself in order to possess the greatest of wealth: to possess God himself.

The young man walked away sadly, for he had great material wealth.

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Post #105

Post by McCulloch »

TMMaria wrote:While you discern a different spirit, a spirit of condescension, I'd like for you to know that when I use the phrase "sympathy" and "pity"... it is meant to be in the same spirit that Jesus Christ looked at a wealthy young man who desires to have the kingdom of Heaven...it was conveyed the young man went out of his way to be righteous but must have felt something amissed when he asked Jesus for advice on what else he must do.

Jesus looked at him with pity (and certainly profound love) when Jesus said, "Sell all that you have and follow me."

Jesus asked him to distribute all his wealth and to empty himself in order to possess the greatest of wealth: to possess God himself.

The young man walked away sadly, for he had great material wealth.
Actually, the man's question was, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

Jesus' answer was, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Do you know anyone who has done this?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Post #106

Post by Beto »

TMMaria wrote:
Zzyzx wrote:.
TMMaria wrote:We can only smile and be sympathetic and pity our unbelieving brothers and sisters to have to go through life accepting and seeing only things limited to what science can explain. Wouldn't we know it, the Lawgiver of those laws of nature Himself change the rules as He wish...but there are those still too much into the letters of the laws to not see the Lawgiver Himself.
Is it your objective to make enemies by a condescending and elitist attitude?
Are there people out there in the habit of making others their enemies because of the statement: "you have my sympathy, you have my pity?" Are there people out there in the habit of making enemies of people who disagree and present a different belief from theirs?
I'm amazed at how you can't seem to tell the difference between "simpathy" and "pity". Something tells me you'd feel offended if I regarded you as someone in sorrow, misery and distress. Do you know the difference between "benevolent pity" and "contemptuous pity"? Maybe I pity you, "unfortunate, injured, or pathetic creature"... as "pity" is defined in wikipedia.

"Pity may represent little more than the impersonal concern which prompts the mailing of a check, but true sympathy is the personal concern which demands the giving of one's soul." Martin Luther King, Jr

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Post #107

Post by The Duke of Vandals »

What amazes me is the fact apologists are utterly incapable of addressing even the idea that Christianity may have been the first century equivalent of scientology. It's really the only explanation that fits the real evidence. To put is as simply as I can:

There's not a shred of evidence Jesus was around when the gospels allege he was around.

The gospels are written after the fall of the second Jewish temple with the very obvious intention of starting a new religion to get people to want to be Jewish even though they're facing Roman persecution.

The claims made in the gospels are very obviously false nor do we have enough evidence to conclude the disciples existed. In other words, it was a scam.

When Constantine became emperor, it became an institutionalized scam with each generation indoctrinating the next.

Apologists are incapable of looking past the bias of their own indoctrination... which is sad. Most of them are quite intelligent.

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Post #108

Post by Easyrider »

The Duke of Vandals wrote:What amazes me is the fact apologists are utterly incapable of addressing even the idea that Christianity may have been the first century equivalent of scientology. It's really the only explanation that fits the real evidence. To put is as simply as I can:

There's not a shred of evidence Jesus was around when the gospels allege he was around.

The gospels are written after the fall of the second Jewish temple with the very obvious intention of starting a new religion to get people to want to be Jewish even though they're facing Roman persecution.

The claims made in the gospels are very obviously false nor do we have enough evidence to conclude the disciples existed. In other words, it was a scam.

When Constantine became emperor, it became an institutionalized scam with each generation indoctrinating the next.

Apologists are incapable of looking past the bias of their own indoctrination... which is sad. Most of them are quite intelligent.
Lots of suppositions there, but no beef. I believe a wealth of evidences to the contrary have already been presented in this and other fora.

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Post #109

Post by Cathar1950 »

The Duke of Vandals wrote:What amazes me is the fact apologists are utterly incapable of addressing even the idea that Christianity may have been the first century equivalent of scientology. It's really the only explanation that fits the real evidence. To put is as simply as I can:

There's not a shred of evidence Jesus was around when the gospels allege he was around.

The gospels are written after the fall of the second Jewish temple with the very obvious intention of starting a new religion to get people to want to be Jewish even though they're facing Roman persecution.

The claims made in the gospels are very obviously false nor do we have enough evidence to conclude the disciples existed. In other words, it was a scam.

When Constantine became emperor, it became an institutionalized scam with each generation indoctrinating the next.

Apologists are incapable of looking past the bias of their own indoctrination... which is sad. Most of them are quite intelligent.
LOL :lol:
Granted it is a rather simplistic summary but it does capture the big picture.
We should grant that some really did believe something sometime but it kept on changing with many varieties early on.
the very obvious intention of starting a new religion to get people to want to be Jewish even though they're facing Roman persecution
This was my only objection is it tells only part of the story. There were other factor besides wanting to be Jewish involved such as Hellenized Jews that wanted to be Greek and a number mystery sects that wanted to be old even if it was an innovation. They also provided socio-cultural needs not allowed or available to them as Roman servants or subjects in major cities that were in social upheaval where even clubs, societies, firemen and such groups were outlawed do to possible rioting.

stevencarrwork
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Post #110

Post by stevencarrwork »

The peculiar thing about Goose's arguments is the way he contradicts his Lord and Saviour.

Goose thinks the people opposed to Christianity would convert if they saw a resurrected Jesus.

Luke 16:30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

Luke 16:31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'

Guess the Bible is debunked one more time.

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