Evolutionary Purpose of Morality

[Wootah]

I think I worked it out.

The evolution purpose of morality is to forget the evil we have done and do.

No one can cope with the horror show of biology and human history. We are all descended for murderers, etc.

So in response morality evolved to help with an illusion that we are the good guys.

Does anyone want to debate my notion on the evolution of morality?

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Edited by otseng

[Clownboat]

The idea that we are all made in the image of God is bible based and literally changed the world and brought the kings and queens down on that stumbling stone. Right?

Religions have done this.
Readers, do not be fooled that this is unique or special to Christianity.

My point was that religions are useful to rulers. One ruler justifying the genocide of another, because their god concept desires it is what brings down kings and queens (leaders of competing tribes). This ability to get your populace to steal the land or the virgins of another tribe and feel justified in doing it is the usefulness I refer to. That a religion may or may not claim that we are made in the image of the said god(s) is irrelevant to how useful religions can be to rulers.

Imagine a scenario where a ruler wanted to take control of some land. Let's call it the Holy Land. Then, let's imagine that a pope, we can call him Pope Urban the 2nd, called for Christians to aid the Byzantine Empire that was ruled by Emperor Alexios I Komnenos and his promise of indulgences (forgiveness of sins) for those who participated is what ignited the first wave of crusades. Now, either there was a god concept (or two) that literally desired the Crusades to take place, or rulers were using religion for their own gains.

I think you missed my point. Religion has done more to control the elites than the plebs.

I acknowledge that you think this, but in reality I did not miss your point. For the evidence, please see the provided examples above in bold that addresses your claim that religions keep elites in control.

Pretend for a moment that only Christianity is true for the sake of debate. It would mean that all the remaining religions are false and were created for some purpose and that purpose I argue is the usefulness that they provide to the ruler(s). They certainly were not created because they are true because they are false and no leader that wanted to maintain their control would endorse them if it meant losing their control.

Another example would be a starving tribe. A ruler could meet with its shaman and note how their neighboring tribe has lots of goats. All it would take is for the shaman to provide a message from their gods about how their neighboring tribe is evil (because they worship false gods) and needs to be eradicated before they evil ways spread. While your at it, these gods would like for us to keep their goats and virgin girls. Surely you see how useful this would in fact be?

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.” ― Seneca

Seneca seemed to be onto something...

[Wootah]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #101]

Wait a Seneca ....

In your examples you demonstrate a ruler listening to a pope/shaman. That is religion controlling the elite.

Do you think the people at the bottom need to have religion in order to be compliant? All they need is sport / entertainment.

Also for a counter example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Becket_controversy

[Wootah]

I've never understood how some people can deny that humans create their own moral codes, when it should be obvious to anyone who has any understanding of human history and societies.

If all morality comes from God and humans are incapable of creating their own morality, that carries some very dark consequences.

What dark consequences?

[Jose Fly]

I've never understood how some people can deny that humans create their own moral codes, when it should be obvious to anyone who has any understanding of human history and societies.

If all morality comes from God and humans are incapable of creating their own morality, that carries some very dark consequences.

What dark consequences?

If God is the source of every moral code throughout human history......well, then I suggest you take a look at history and some of the things societies have considered to be "moral".

[Wootah]

I've never understood how some people can deny that humans create their own moral codes, when it should be obvious to anyone who has any understanding of human history and societies.

If all morality comes from God and humans are incapable of creating their own morality, that carries some very dark consequences.

What dark consequences?

If God is the source of every moral code throughout human history......well, then I suggest you take a look at history and some of the things societies have considered to be "moral".

It means they fell from the standard ... right?

[Jose Fly]

I've never understood how some people can deny that humans create their own moral codes, when it should be obvious to anyone who has any understanding of human history and societies.

If all morality comes from God and humans are incapable of creating their own morality, that carries some very dark consequences.

What dark consequences?

If God is the source of every moral code throughout human history......well, then I suggest you take a look at history and some of the things societies have considered to be "moral".

It means they fell from the standard ... right?

It means "humans can't create moral codes" is false.

[A Freeman]

Humans have been expressly prohibited from legislating, upon pain of death:

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not ADD unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the Commandments of the "I AM" your God which I COMMAND you.

Deuteronomy 12:8 Ye shall not do after all [the things] that we do here this day, every man whatsoever [is] right in his own eyes.

Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Deuteronomy 17:11-13
17:11 According to The Sentence of The Law which they shall teach thee, and according to the Judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline to do The Sentence which they shall show thee, and turn not away from it [to] the right hand, nor [to] the left.
17:12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the "I AM" thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and [thus] thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.
17:13 And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously (in thinking they are a law unto themselves).

The reason for this should be self-evident.

When one adds or takes away from a law that is already PERFECT, what they get is something that is defective and very obviously imperfect.

And the more made-up rules there are, the more lawless a society becomes.

"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws." - Tacitus

Today, in the United States, there are reportedly several million man-made rules, statutes, "codes", policies, etc. stemming from unlawful legislation, and even more "case law" based upon precedents.

No one could read all of these made-up rules in 10 lifetimes much less in 1. So no one could possibly know all of these rules, much less know which ones cancel the others out, or which ones are more important than the others, etc., because it's impossible for anyone to know these things.

Go look up the legal definition for "fraud". You will find hundreds of different definitions, for this kind of fraud and that kind of fraud in this situation or that situation, and what it means if it results in this much property being stolen or that much property being stolen, etc. These definitions exist at the local level, the state level and the federal level, and have been codified in most states into their government codes, estate codes, codes of criminal procedures, penal codes, business and commerce codes, civil practices and remedies codes, etc.

In God's Law it's very simple and easy to understand:

Thou shalt NOT steal.
Thou shalt NOT bear false witness, i.e. lie (commit fraud of any kind).

The penalty for theft under God's Law? The thief must pay double the amount that they attempted to steal. Example: if a thief steals $100 from their would-be victim, then they must repay the $100 plus an additional $100. Simple.

Perfect divine justice. That way the thief has inflicted upon them exactly the same penalty that they would have inflicted upon someone else, to deter them from EVER attempting to steal again. Nobody can afford to be in a business where they lose 200% of their income 100% of the time.

This should serve as a perfect example of why mankind has been prohibited from legislating their own morality. In our insanity, believing that we know better than God what is moral and just, we have created a LAWLESS society. A place where most evil, filthy rich thieves from among us can make up their own rules to make it easier for them to "legally" lie, cheat and steal. A society where black-robed judges make it up as they go along, so that others can multiply their terribly unjust decisions exponentially in a never-ending cycle of "rule bending". Totally insane.

The ONLY One qualified to make moral judgments very obviously needs to be SANE, and have a perfect track record. And The Law itself needs to be simple enough that everyone can read it and understand it, so that no one requires a team of special interpreters (aka lawyers/attorneys/barristers) to supposedly figure it all out. An "attorney" is literally "one who twists and turns", i.e. one who manipulates the rules to say whatever they want them to say in any given situation.

We have 6000 years of recorded human history to prove beyond ANY reasonable doubt that we don't know what we're doing (i.e. we are insane). And the court systems we have today in virtually every country in the world stand as proof of that, along with voluminous "law libraries" in every city, state and country.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #101]

Wait a Seneca ....

In your examples you demonstrate a ruler listening to a pope/shaman. That is religion controlling the elite.

Do you think the people at the bottom need to have religion in order to be compliant? All they need is sport / entertainment.

Also for a counter example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Becket_controversy

Rulers rule. They rule over their shamans. There are exceptions to every rule of course.
What this all has to do with you asking me to make morality not arbitrary is completely lost on me. I fear you are just trying to distract from how I did just that and the implications it has on religions and why we seem to have them.

[Clownboat]

In God's Law it's very simple and easy to understand:

Thou shalt NOT steal.

Unless your stealing virgin girls as spoils of war. Then you can steal.

Thou shalt NOT bear false witness, i.e. lie (commit fraud of any kind).

If I were hiding Jews during the Holocaust, I would lie about such a thing if the Nazi's were inquiring. How about you?

This 'God's Law' you speak of is not as simple nor as easy to understand as you claim and I must assume you are not very familiar with the book of Deuteronomy.

The penalty for theft under God's Law? The thief must pay double the amount that they attempted to steal. Example: if a thief steals $100 from their would-be victim, then they must repay the $100 plus an additional $100. Simple.

And if a man steals a girls virginity, he is to pay the father 50 shekels of silver! Go morality!

Perfect divine justice.

Just leaving this here for all to see.

This should serve as a perfect example of why mankind has been prohibited from legislating their own morality.

Humans have always created their own morality. You don't realize this is seems because you are focused only on ancient Israelites for some reason.

In our insanity

Leaving this here for all to see.

believing that we know better than God what is moral and just,

When it comes to genocide, rape and slavery (for a few examples), I do believe we know better than the claims humans made on behalf of the god concept you now believe in.

we have created a LAWLESS society.

This is demonstrably wrong once you look at our societies and the laws they have created.

The ONLY One qualified to make moral judgments very obviously needs to be SANE, and have a perfect track record.

You're preferred god concept does not have a perfect track record.

We have 6000 years of recorded human history to prove beyond ANY reasonable doubt that we don't know what we're doing (i.e. we are insane).

I'm not insane. Are you projecting?

And the court systems we have today in virtually every country in the world stand as proof of that, along with voluminous "law libraries" in every city, state and country.

This same person said this just a few lines up: "we have created a LAWLESS society."

[A Freeman]

This is a lunatic asylum for the criminally insane (planet Earth). It matters not whether one believes that or not; it doesn't change that fact.

Sadly, those who are most insane believe they are supposedly sane, because their ignorance masks their own arrogance, and they have no desire to do anything about it.

That's why people are still struggling with simple concepts like "don't steal" and "don't lie", or wish to pretend that our current "just us" system is somehow fair or equitable, when it is corrupt beyond repair.

Sadder yet, everyone who chooses, of their own free-will to ignore these simple lessons and the necessary effort required to constantly work on their own humility, is soon going to be executed, regardless of what they may mistakenly believe to the contrary.

The only moral thing to do in this situation is to warn people of the consequences of their actions, while they still have time to do something about it. The rest is up to them.

Only the meek and thus spiritually fit will survive.