predestination

[jgh7]

This is something I'm struggling with. The way I understand it, God predestined before He made the earth who He would save and who He would not. I definitely see that this is how the bible puts it, whether it be Paul (Ephesians 1:3-14), or Jesus (John 6:44). It is appears to be completely out of our hands whether we are saved or not. Either God chooses us to be saved or He chooses us to go to Hell. Why should I bother caring about who should be saved or not then? It's all been determined by God. Why should I even blame humans for something that is completely out of their control? The sinner destined to Hell is really no better than the sinner that I am. I perhaps am just fortunate enough that God chose to save me, and I guess the other sinner is just unlucky. Or perhaps I am unknowingly destined for Hell as well. In any case, what sense does any of this make? Our actions are completely pointless when it comes to being saved. It's solely up to God. Are we supposed to view this as wonderful awe-inspiring mercy, because it just makes no sense to me for God to predestine to sentence many humans to eternal punishment.

[joer]

Here's Achilles response to that old Topaz Post I was refering to. It was from Revelations not Romans.

Is hell eternal or not?HERE

Is hell eternal or not?
No, it is not eternal.

From Rev 20:15 which is the last verse, it says that all those whose names are not written in the book of life was cast into hell. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

After this, we see another scenario : a new heaven + a new earth + ALL THINGS NEW. This means ugly hell is no more. Ugliness, suffering, does not exist anymore in God�s creation b/c He creates ALL THINGS NEW.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Hell itself will be completely destroyed and the souls therein are no more in existence � anywhere. According to scripture, this is not a situation God wants us to be in. He wants us with Him in heaven to enjoy all He has to offer.

As much as I began argueing against this viewpoint, upon further reading, I have to acknowledge that this view point is exactly where the scriptures seems to point. Hence I have altered my viewpoint yet again.

I learn so much here.

I think Christian Guy got it right, right of the bat.

I think that you are mistaken my friend. First of all, if this was true it would mean that the Bible lied in John 3:16 where it states "that who ever beieves in him shall not perish but have everlasting life"

jgh7 wrote:

Are we supposed to view this as wonderful awe-inspiring mercy, because it just makes no sense to me for God to predestine to sentence many humans to eternal punishment.

God makes sence brother. We may not understand God Sence. But that's not His fault. We have to keep searching for the God-like undersatnding until it DOES MAKE SENCE. Sometimes it has taken me 25 years of Prayer to see something that was there ALL ALONG. But when you "see it" what a liberation and joy it is.
It's worth the search and the wait!

I also like Dgruber's prespective:

God is outside of time where as we are bound to live in it.

We exist in time and God exist in eternity. So we don't know what we are going to choose BUT God theoretically does. (I would never try try to pretend I understand what God does, I have a hard enough time figuring out what He meant me to do. I think I got it now BUT it's still HARD to do it. ) Still God gave us Free Will which I think is His way of sharing in infinity with Him. We are co-creating God like infinite expansion with every choice we make that follows the will of God. And as such as God made each of us Unique, that experience contributes to the totality of our infinite Father and Creator God.

Bless you and and all here, jgh7!

I'm posting at a library now, so it may be awhile before I can respond. God Bless You All and Give you strength to share God's Love with our non-believer friends in a most Propitious Way. may the Will of God be served. Amen brothers and sisters!

[Skyler]

Good or Evil, Your Choice

The free will of evolving man or exquisite angel is not a mere philosophic concept, a symbolic ideal. Man's ability to choose good or evil is a universe reality.

But it's not Scriptural. Read the book of Romans.

Hi Skyler! Nice to meet you brother. I love your posts.

Thanks! I appreciate your "civilitude" as well.

Just find the Scripture supporting Free Will, That should help. jgh7 is right How is the Loving God, Our Father in heaven who so unconditionally loves us going to torture us in HELL FOR EVER. No way man!

I agree. God won't torture those he unconditionally loves in Hell forever.

There was a Christian here a year or two ago who found an excellent scripture and provided an enlighten understanding of it showing the Hell isn't eternal. I think it's in Romans.

What would you like to see from Scripture Skyler? Support of the concept of Free Will?

Support of the concept of libertarian free will. I don't disagree that we have free will, only that we have the ability to "choose God" as much of modern evangelical Christianity propounds.

It seems to me the answer to Predestination is Sovereign Choice, "Free Will". God gave us a wonderful gift. we can choose a Predetermined Path. We can accept His Freely Offered Salvation or we can choose to suffer or experience the Consequences of Refusing Eternal Life. If we had no choice we would be automatons and God would have made us perfectly Good. But by giving us a choice our gift to him is much more valuable. because we don't have to give him our eternal Life dedicated to Service to Him and our brethren.

I would like to point out that the gift is from God, to us, not the other way around. The Bible states clearly in Romans(ch. 9?) that it is not of him who desires or wills, but of God who gives the grace. Therefore, if there is a gift, God is giving it to himself. We aren't.

I don't want to get you off track Skyler because I so enjoy the eloquence of your logic and reasoning within the Religious Conceptual Frames of reference. It's truly a blessing to watch you and all here present there uniquely God given personalities express themselves while maintaining adherence to the Will of Our father.

It's a blessing to converse with you. Tell what you want, from Scripture and I will search for it. In God's Love I am in your service.

Likewise, joer. God bless.

Skyler

P.S. The concept of hell being eternal is found in scriptures such as Revelation 20:10, 14:11, etc.

[joer]

Thanks for the reply Skyler. I enjoyed it very much.

Support of the concept of libertarian free will. I don't disagree that we have free will, only that we have the ability to "choose God" as much of modern evangelical Christianity propounds.

I would think Libertarian Free Will might be conceived as something like this:

The attribute of choice-liberty is also bestowed by the Universal Father, and such persons are likewise embraced in the great circuit of divine love, the personality circuit of the Universal Father. God provides for the sovereign choice of all true personalities. No personal creature can be coerced into the eternal adventure; the portal of eternity opens only in response to the freewill choice of the freewill sons of the God of free will.

Where the choice we have is individually ours and NOT Determined by any Organized Religion, Church or entity but contained within our own UNIQUE divine gift of God given Personality and our God Given gift of Free Will choice.

Is that close enough? Perhaps you can share your concept of Libertarian Free Will with me. I’m not familiar with it as a common concept. Thanks Brother.

So I’ll see if I can find some scripture supportive of what you define. Thanks man.

I would like to point out that the gift is from God, to us, not the other way around. The Bible states clearly in Romans(ch. 9?) that it is not of him who desires or wills, but of God who gives the grace. Therefore, if there is a gift, God is giving it to himself. We aren't.

I believe your exactly right Skyler. But perhaps you can see the value of God’s gift of Grace to us by how he created us? What He gives himself through us in the way he created us is the POTENTIAL of developing a Unique Personal Expression of the Infinitude of His Grace. By creating an almost infinite numbers of options (at least from our perspective) to choose from HE allows “US� which is really “HIM�, to have the appearance (which is a divine illusion) of Co-creating The Reality of His Supreme “Being�. By adding “OUR� which is “HIS� experiences through interaction with His Creation which is “HIM� to become "MORE" than what "He WAS" (except that time doesn’t enter the equation for "HIM" and He can't be More than "HE IS" except that "HE IS" ever expanding) in His infinite expansion of “Being�.

So “WE� who are “HIM� as we are created and as we exist are "a way" (like Christ was) in which GOD cohabitates (so to speak) and Co-Creates within and expands into the burgeoning reality of His Absolute Being.

So YES we are a gift from God to himself. BUT by giving us "free will" and "unique personality" HE really DOES make us in His Image.

We are MUCH MORE than we think we are. We are a portion of the Creator with the Potential of eternally expanding in our realization of being "ONE" with HIM. Or at least that’s about as far as my simple mind can take it (my understanding of God) at this point in TIME and eternity. Does that sound a little convoluted to you? I hope not.

P.S. The concept of hell being eternal is found in scriptures such as Revelation 20:10, 14:11, etc.

I recognize this as seeming like eternity "for ever and ever".

Revelation 20:10
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

AND the second death stuff that occurs right after it also.

Revelation 20:15
15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

which we later are informed "is the second death."
The second death is supposed to be the permanent one. Right?

And what about this occuring "so close" after "for ever and ever"? Could it be that the second death and torment "for ever and ever", ENDS when Christ makes ALL THINGS NEW!?

Could it be that Everbody who was thrown into the Lake of Fire and condemned to the second death "cease to exist" ? Those who choose salvation continue on being made New within Christ.

Revelation 21:1
The New Jerusalem
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

Revelation 21:5
5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

What do you think Skyler? Does that seem possible? It makes more sence to me than the eternal torment concept.

Peace be to ALL on this site.

[jgh7]

Thank you all for replying. This issue had bothered me greatly to the point of nearly giving up my faith, but I have now come to terms with it. It seems like we definitely can't be Christians without God changing us and giving us the Holy Spirit. God has mercy on whom He chooses to have mercy. Some people will hear the gospel and ignore it; God will move others to change and become Christians. I guess you could call it predestination. But at the same time, there is a part of this faith that is in our control. If no one preached Christianity, there would be far less Christians in the world, so our actions do count for something in saving people. I don't fully understand how God chooses which people to bring to him to save, but I know that I trust Him. This trust is all that matters.

[joer]

JGH7 writes:

This issue had bothered me greatly to the point of nearly giving up my faith, but I have now come to terms with it. ...

I don't fully understand how God chooses which people to bring to him to save, but I know that I trust Him. This trust is all that matters.

The world is filled with hungry souls who famish in the very presence of the bread of life; men die searching for the very God who lives within them. Men seek for the treasures of the kingdom with yearning hearts and weary feet when they are all within the immediate grasp of living faith. Faith is to religion what sails are to a ship; it is an addition of power, not an added burden of life. There is but one struggle for those who enter the kingdom, and that is to fight the good fight of faith. The believer has only one battle, and that is against doubt--unbelief.

You got it jgh7, always trust in God never lose faith. You will be well served by adhering to to trust and faith in God.

God's Blessings be with you my brother.