Indoctrinization

[OnceConvinced]

In another thread on the topic of childhood indoctronisation, I made this comment:

How can you say that religion is not responsible for indoctronation?

Twobitsmedia replied:

Religion can only do so if the subject is willing to be indoctrinated.

So, my questions.

Does a child have a choice when it comes to being indoctronised?

Can a child know they are being indoctronised?

Can a child avoid being indoctronised?

Please justify your answers.

[Thought Criminal]

Indoctrination of children only produces lukewarm Christians, the really fanatical ones are just born that way and come from all backgrounds.
I was indoctrinated a fanatic Atheist until the age of 19, and look at me now, 30 years later and I have not even seen the light of sanity and reason since.

Failing to indoctrinate them as children produces areligious people. Giving them an education in critical thinking and a neutral survey of religious beliefs suffices to make them bona fide atheists.

Indoctrinating people in atheism, as opposed to simply educating them and letting them come to that conclusion on their own, leaves them with a belief system that depends on theism to exist. It is less atheism than anti-theism. For example, the old Soviet Union used to teach rote atheism, which people would dutifully recite back, but they were about as likely as not to fall for religion when the opportunity came.

TC

[twobitsmedia]

Does a child have a choice when it comes to being indoctronised?

Can a child know they are being indoctronised?

Can a child avoid being indoctronised?

Please justify your answers.

If I answer no to any of these, then it would mean that everyone is only what they are because they learned it from their parents. Since I do not believe that is true I would have to say no. I think that by answering no I would have to conclude that all children are hopeless victims of their parents and I also do not believe that is true either. A child who is molested has a sense that what is being done is wrong. The may not have any control to stop it at the time, but they will 1)eventually get away or 2) block it out mentally.

Now, do I think that it would be possible for a parent to completely indoctrinate a child? I am not sure. They would have to destroy the childs sense of any self esteem first I would think, and then I suppose, but unless the child is completely blocked from any people in the outside world it would still be questionable.

[Thought Criminal]

Does a child have a choice when it comes to being indoctronised?

Can a child know they are being indoctronised?

Can a child avoid being indoctronised?

Please justify your answers.

If I answer no to any of these, then it would mean that everyone is only what they are because they learned it from their parents. Since I do not believe that is true I would have to say no. I think that by answering no I would have to conclude that all children are hopeless victims of their parents and I also do not believe that is true either. A child who is molested has a sense that what is being done is wrong. The may not have any control to stop it at the time, but they will 1)eventually get away or 2) block it out mentally.

Now, do I think that it would be possible for a parent to completely indoctrinate a child? I am not sure. They would have to destroy the childs sense of any self esteem first I would think, and then I suppose, but unless the child is completely blocked from any people in the outside world it would still be questionable.

No, no, no, that's much too complicated. Much easier to simply conflate trust and love in your parents with belief in a religion. "You wouldn't call mommy and daddy liars by becoming an atheist, would you?"

It's also helpful if the religion itself is, you know, hugely manipulative. It should be judgemental, offering huge rewards and unthinkably horrible punishments.

I believe I've reinvented Christianity.

TC

[OnceConvinced]

And yet the propagation of religion depends highly on indoctrinating children.

TC

Indoctrination of children only produces lukewarm Christians, the really fanatical ones are just born that way and come from all backgrounds.

Whoa, way off the mark there. I was indoctronated as a child and I was definitely not lukewarm. I was a very active Christian, always looking to do my bit for the betterment of the kingdom. How, I was definitely not a fanatic. I did not go around preaching to everyone I met, I did not go condemning others for their evil life styles.

I did speak to others about Christ from time to time and I tried to show Christian love whenever I could, but definitely didn't go overboard.

On top of that I have met many active and on fire Christians who were indoctronated who I would definitely not see as fanatical.

No doubt there are plenty of lukewarm Christians out there, but I don't see any links between that and indoctronation. I would however agree that fanatical ones are born the way they are, that it's part of their personality. I would also suggest the same about luke warm Christians.

[OnceConvinced]

Does a child have a choice when it comes to being indoctronised?

Can a child know they are being indoctronised?

Can a child avoid being indoctronised?

Please justify your answers.

If I answer no to any of these, then it would mean that everyone is only what they are because they learned it from their parents. Since I do not believe that is true I would have to say no. I think that by answering no I would have to conclude that all children are hopeless victims of their parents and I also do not believe that is true either. A child who is molested has a sense that what is being done is wrong. The may not have any control to stop it at the time, but they will 1)eventually get away or 2) block it out mentally.

Now, do I think that it would be possible for a parent to completely indoctrinate a child? I am not sure. They would have to destroy the childs sense of any self esteem first I would think, and then I suppose, but unless the child is completely blocked from any people in the outside world it would still be questionable.

Fair comments there, but I wonder about the whole sexual abuse thing. From what I understand some kids have come to see it as normal behavior. It's not until later that they discover it is not.

My ex wife is a classic example. She underwent some sexual abuse from her father and although she didn't like it, she didn't realise it was wrong. It wasn't until about 11 or 12 when she was sitting in a lesson at school and the teacher was talking about it that she began to realise it was wrong. She said she just sat there in horror as the teacher talked about it. She was distraught enough that the teacher actually noticed her reaction and called her aside later on. That was the day she realised she had been wronged by her own father. If it hadn't been for that education she received she may have continued to believe it was normal.

In my childhood growing up in a Christian home, nobody challenged my beliefs. Nobody told me that my parents were wrong in what they were doing and that I was being indoctronated. In fact my realisation I was indoctronated has only come in recent times once I broke free of Christianity. The thing is that I was in a protective bubble all my life. Only mainly socialising with Christians (or people who respected my beliefs). There also seems to be a culture here in New Zealand where you respect peoples religious beliefs even if you disagree with them (well there at least used to be when I was younger). I only ever came across one really anti-Christian guy who I worked with and he was just an irrational jerk and his arguments were easily destroyed. I had a debate with another non-religious woman about evolution and even she in the end admitted that she believed there was some God who caused the Big Bang.

Part of the teaching of my Christian parents was to only have Christian friends. In fact my mother put down some pf my non-Christian friends at school, which really used to rile me up. She used to say things like "Why don't you get a decent friend". When I told her I was going out with a non-Christian three years ago she said "Why don't you get a nice Christian girl?" She has now come to accept her, but I think it was because of the belief that I might lead her to Christ. She even suggested that once.

[Jian^sia]

In my childhood growing up in a Christian home, nobody challenged my beliefs. Nobody told me that my parents were wrong in what they were doing and that I was being indoctrinated. In fact my realisation I was indoctrinated has only come in recent times once I broke free of Christianity. The thing is that I was in a protective bubble all my life. Only mainly socialising with Christians (or people who respected my beliefs). There also seems to be a culture here in New Zealand where you respect peoples religious beliefs even if you disagree with them (well there at least used to be when I was younger). I only ever came across one really anti-Christian guy who I worked with and he was just an irrational jerk and his arguments were easily destroyed. I had a debate with another non-religious woman about evolution and even she in the end admitted that she believed there was some God who caused the Big Bang.

Part of the teaching of my Christian parents was to only have Christian friends. In fact my mother put down some pf my non-Christian friends at school, which really used to rile me up. She used to say things like "Why don't you get a decent friend". When I told her I was going out with a non-Christian three years ago she said "Why don't you get a nice Christian girl?" She has now come to accept her, but I think it was because of the belief that I might lead her to Christ. She even suggested that once.

Interesting sharing. So what happened to her now? Is she your ex-wife?
Anyway I don't think you should just have Christian friends. Your parents were just being protective. The company of your friends usually do lead you to conform to their ideals and patterns. The Bible says,

"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

It does not say, don't make friend with them. It says not to follow them, to walk in their ways, to sit down as they sit down.

And one other thing, it's "good" that you are an agnostic and not full-blown atheist. I was agnostic once, so I can understand. But what happened? What shook your faith? It's not too good to let the wound stay untreated.

[Beto]

Indoctrination of children only produces lukewarm Christians, the really fanatical ones are just born that way and come from all backgrounds.

I would however agree that fanatical ones are born the way they are, that it's part of their personality.

I'm not sure I'm following. How is someone born "fanatical", religious or otherwise?

[OnceConvinced]

Interesting sharing. So what happened to her now? Is she your ex-wife?

Yep. She ended up with a non-Christian guy and she didn't want anything to do with Christianity until she split up with that guy. Now she's with another Christian guy and what do you know, she's a Christian again.

Anyway I don't think you should just have Christian friends. Your parents were just being protective. The company of your friends usually do lead you to conform to their ideals and patterns. The Bible says,

"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

It does not say, don't make friend with them. It says not to follow them, to walk in their ways, to sit down as they sit down.

I agree. But there are also other scriptures too though, like not being unequally yoked.

2Cr 6:14-15 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?

This is the one I hear a lot, particularly when it comes to marriage and probably one that a lot of Christians would take to heart.

And one other thing, it's "good" that you are an agnostic and not full-blown atheist. I was agnostic once, so I can understand. But what happened? What shook your faith? It's not too good to let the wound stay untreated.

A lot of things. If you're interested you can check out these threads where I talk about my deconversion:

Member Spotlight
What made you give up?
Was I a true Christian?

[olavisjo]

And yet the propagation of religion depends highly on indoctrinating children.

TC

Indoctrination of children only produces lukewarm Christians, the really fanatical ones are just born that way and come from all backgrounds.

Whoa, way off the mark there. I was indoctrinated as a child and I was definitely not lukewarm. I was a very active Christian, always looking to do my bit for the betterment of the kingdom. How, I was definitely not a fanatic. I did not go around preaching to everyone I met, I did not go condemning others for their evil life styles.

I did speak to others about Christ from time to time and I tried to show Christian love whenever I could, but definitely didn't go overboard.

On top of that I have met many active and on fire Christians who were indoctrinated who I would definitely not see as fanatical.

No doubt there are plenty of lukewarm Christians out there, but I don't see any links between that and indoctronation. I would however agree that fanatical ones are born the way they are, that it's part of their personality. I would also suggest the same about lukewarm Christians.

If you had not been indoctrinated as a Christian, you would probably have been very active on Internet forums debating the merits of religion and such. You were not born a full blown fanatic, but not lukewarm either.

I'm not sure I'm following. How is someone born "fanatical", religious or otherwise?

born
2 a: having from birth specified qualities <a born leader>

[Thought Criminal]

If you had not been indoctrinated as a Christian, you would probably have been very active on Internet forums debating the merits of religion and such. You were not born a full blown fanatic, but not lukewarm either.

I must admit that I have no idea what you're talking about. I was never indoctrinated as a Christian nor am I a fanatic.

TC