basics

[umair]

we talk about the details , of religions, and that too mostly from what most of us percieve from our reading through the net, leave it for a while.

lets come back to the basics, and clear them first.

here are some questions, that i have raised many times , but have mostly been neglected by the debators.

FOR CHRISTIANS,

1)CAN GOD COMMIT MISTAKES , AND AFTER THAT ,SUFFER AT THE HANDS OF HIS MISTAKES.

well this is clear from the christian theory, that god took away all burden of sin ,on his crucifiction, now dont say that sin was not a creation of god, otherwise unwantingly you will lead to the creation of another bad/evil god.
ie:was god unaware that if he is creating evil, then he will himself have to take its burden, and that too at the cost of his own so called death.

2)IN THE BIBLE THE CHRIST DOSEN,T CALLS HIMSELF THE SON OF GOD, but calls god as'ABBA'(ie:protector or guardian), then why do the christians project him as one.

3)NIETHER DOES HE CALLS HIMSELF AS GOD, and mostly references which project him as a messenger are found.

4)IF GOD ANYHOW HAD TO COME TO THE EARTH,AND SHOW SUPERNATURAL THINGS, THEN HE WOULD HAVE DIRECTLY DECENDED TO THE EARTH, INSTEAD FROM THE WOMB OF A LADY.
ETC


FOR JEWS,

WELL ,they are a totally diverted community, who consider god to be bound to serve them only, what to speak more of!


INDIAN RELIGIONS,

WELL THEY ARE ALL BOUND BY SUPERNATURAL BEINGS AND THEIR STORIES, AND MOST OF THE INDIAN RELIGIONS ARE A MERE REFORM FROM THE THEN PREVAILING CONDITIONS, BY SOME NOBLE MEN, WHO WERE LATER WORSHIPPED, FOR THEIR PEACE OF THOUGHT.


AND YES I LEAVE ISLAM,UNTO YOU, BECAUSE THAT IS MY PART OF THE DEBATE.

[carolineislands]

avatars are aspects of the various gods, the hindu gods themselves never come to earth.

Exactly. The avatars represent the same sort of things that the 99 names of allâh do.

Isn't that the Jungian archetype thing? Very interesting that you would point this out about the concept of Allah. It is very similar to the African Traditional and Afro-Caribbean religions like Vodoun, Voodoo, Santeria, Condomble, etc... I hadn't thought of the 99 names of allah in that context but you're right!

Great point.

[umair]

"Wyvern"

"Wyvern"

in islam allah(swt), is not a specific supernatural being , but is just in comparision to what the atheist call as nature,

So Islam is no different than Wicca? You claim that Allah=nature which means you worship nature which is what Wicca does.

i guess you missed the next line, that nature is controlled by the laws of allah.

Okay, so you are saying nature is controlled by the laws of nature aka allah. I still don't see how this separates you from the wiccans. You call nature Allah, they call it generally the goddess.

well you are again misquoting my words, i have clearly mentioned that , athiests call nature as god , and we say that nature is controlled by god.

but this in comparision to the supernatural gods of the indians is different, as they percieve gods having horns, tails, or in the form of animals, and after that fighting with each other too.

What you are describing is the avatars of hindu gods not the gods themselves.

but avatars,are the gods themselves.

Nope, avatars are aspects of the various gods, the hindu gods themselves never come to earth.

avatars are forms of gods, god according to them comes to earth to solve the problems, in the form of avatar, ie:they consider it to be a part of god.
and apart from this not all animal gods are avatars, and many are animals even in their pure form .

and as far the value of muhammed(saw) in islam goes, then what the quran say's can best describe it for you, that we do not have any right to differentiate between any of the messengers of allah(swt) all the messengers of allah(swt), are equal for us, whether they be(adam,abraham,moses,jesus,etc)(peace be upon all of them)

Well this is simply not true, a cartoon showing a caricature of Mohammed causes worldwide rioting among the muslim communities while on the other hand when Iran hosts an art show denigrating these other prophets and their associated religions not a word in protest was heard.

well if it really has been so, then it's a matter of shame for the muslims, but the other aspect is also there , that when those who consider them as gods are doing nothing, then it appears a bit inappropriate to speak.

That's the problem, many muslims treat muhammed as if he was god itself and not merely a prophet. Maybe it just means the other religions are a bit more thick skinned and don't go up in arms whenever an image they don't like gets displayed. The Iranian art show which was put on in an attempt to show the wests hypocrisy on this matter failed utterly.

well this i amongst the great misconceptions, that we treat muhammed as god(inauzubillah),

but yes we respect him as a messenger of allah, and treat his name with respect, and follow his teachings, which ofcourse are from allah.

if others do not feel insulted on the disgrace of their gods , then it is a matter of shame for them ,not us.

[umair]

avatars are aspects of the various gods, the hindu gods themselves never come to earth.

Exactly. The avatars represent the same sort of things that the 99 names of allâh do.

Isn't that the Jungian archetype thing? Very interesting that you would point this out about the concept of Allah. It is very similar to the African Traditional and Afro-Caribbean religions like Vodoun, Voodoo, Santeria, Condomble, etc... I hadn't thought of the 99 names of allah in that context but you're right!

Great point.

the 99 names of allah(swt) are his attributes, ie:qualities,
like
1)AR-REHMAN(the most compassionate)
2)AR-RAHEEM(the most merciful)
3)AL-KHALIQUE(the creator)
4)AR-RAZZAQUE(the sustainer)etc

these are the qualities of allah(swt), and not his parts or avatars,

[Goat]

"Wyvern"

"Wyvern"

in islam allah(swt), is not a specific supernatural being , but is just in comparision to what the atheist call as nature,

So Islam is no different than Wicca? You claim that Allah=nature which means you worship nature which is what Wicca does.

i guess you missed the next line, that nature is controlled by the laws of allah.

Okay, so you are saying nature is controlled by the laws of nature aka allah. I still don't see how this separates you from the wiccans. You call nature Allah, they call it generally the goddess.

well you are again misquoting my words, i have clearly mentioned that , athiests call nature as god , and we say that nature is controlled by god.

but this in comparision to the supernatural gods of the indians is different, as they percieve gods having horns, tails, o

r in the form of animals, and after that fighting with each other too.

What you are describing is the avatars of hindu gods not the gods themselves.

but avatars,are the gods themselves.

Nope, avatars are aspects of the various gods, the hindu gods themselves never come to earth.

avatars are forms of gods, god according to them comes to earth to solve the problems, in the form of avatar, ie:they consider it to be a part of god.
and apart from this not all animal gods are avatars, and many are animals even in their pure form .

and as far the value of muhammed(saw) in islam goes, then what the quran say's can best describe it for you, that we do not have any right to differentiate between any of the messengers of allah(swt) all the messengers of allah(swt), are equal for us, whether they be(adam,abraham,moses,jesus,etc)(peace be upon all of them)

Well this is simply not true, a cartoon showing a caricature of Mohammed causes worldwide rioting among the muslim communities while on the other hand when Iran hosts an art show denigrating these other prophets and their associated religions not a word in protest was heard.

well if it really has been so, then it's a matter of shame for the muslims, but the other aspect is also there , that when those who consider them as gods are doing nothing, then it appears a bit inappropriate to speak.

That's the problem, many muslims treat muhammed as if he was god itself and not merely a prophet. Maybe it just means the other religions are a bit more thick skinned and don't go up in arms whenever an image they don't like gets displayed. The Iranian art show which was put on in an attempt to show the wests hypocrisy on this matter failed utterly.

well this i amongst the great misconceptions, that we treat muhammed as god(inauzubillah),

but yes we respect him as a messenger of allah, and treat his name with respect, and follow his teachings, which ofcourse are from allah.

if others do not feel insulted on the disgrace of their gods , then it is a matter of shame for them ,not us.

How often when you pray, you mention Allah alone, and don't mention Mohammad>?

[umair]

goat
How often when you pray, you mention Allah alone, and don't mention Mohammad

whenever i pray, i pray to allah(swt) alone.
muhammed(saw), came just to convey his messege,and alhamdullilah did that successfully.


and apart from this in a part of the namaz we recite verses from the quran(any verse)
and that may contain the name of any of the 24 messengers of allah (swt), that are mentioned in the quran.but those names are in reference of the quran. and in no way mean that we are praying to any one of them(may allah forbid. inauzubillah).

[bernee51]

goat
How often when you pray, you mention Allah alone, and don't mention Mohammad

whenever i pray, i pray to allah(swt) alone.
muhammed(saw), came just to convey his messege,and alhamdullilah did that successfully.


and apart from this in a part of the namaz we recite verses from the quran(any verse)
and that may contain the name of any of the 24 messengers of allah (swt), that are mentioned in the quran.but those names are in reference of the quran. and in no way mean that we are praying to any one of them(may allah forbid. inauzubillah).

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it".
-Voltaire.

[Goat]

goat
How often when you pray, you mention Allah alone, and don't mention Mohammad

whenever i pray, i pray to allah(swt) alone.
muhammed(saw), came just to convey his messege,and alhamdullilah did that successfully.


and apart from this in a part of the namaz we recite verses from the quran(any verse)
and that may contain the name of any of the 24 messengers of allah (swt), that are mentioned in the quran.but those names are in reference of the quran. and in no way mean that we are praying to any one of them(may allah forbid. inauzubillah).

Do you, You mean you never mentioned '“There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.” ...?? That is a prayer you know.

[umair]

goat
How often when you pray, you mention Allah alone, and don't mention Mohammad

whenever i pray, i pray to allah(swt) alone.
muhammed(saw), came just to convey his messege,and alhamdullilah did that successfully.


and apart from this in a part of the namaz we recite verses from the quran(any verse)
and that may contain the name of any of the 24 messengers of allah (swt), that are mentioned in the quran.but those names are in reference of the quran. and in no way mean that we are praying to any one of them(may allah forbid. inauzubillah).

Do you, You mean you never mentioned '“There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.” ...?? That is a prayer you know.

i always mention that , but that dosent mean praying to muhammed(saw)(inauzubillah).

this is a testimonial of my faith, or the faith of any muslim.

[Goat]

goat
How often when you pray, you mention Allah alone, and don't mention Mohammad

whenever i pray, i pray to allah(swt) alone.
muhammed(saw), came just to convey his messege,and alhamdullilah did that successfully.


and apart from this in a part of the namaz we recite verses from the quran(any verse)
and that may contain the name of any of the 24 messengers of allah (swt), that are mentioned in the quran.but those names are in reference of the quran. and in no way mean that we are praying to any one of them(may allah forbid. inauzubillah).

Do you, You mean you never mentioned '“There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.” ...?? That is a prayer you know.

i always mention that , but that dosent mean praying to muhammed(saw)(inauzubillah).

this is a testimonial of my faith, or the faith of any muslim.

Never the less, it seems to me that you are rationalizing it. You make a statement of devotion, and you have to mention Mohammad. The riots about cartoons and things are people going nuts about 'insults to Mohammad' , not Allah. It appears from the outside looking in that Mohammad means more than Allah.

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

Or from the inside too. Speaking as an ex–muslim…