muslims believe in allah(swt)

[umair]

well ,

after debating with many of the christian and athiest people around , what i could understand was the fact that we muslims are the only people left who really follow their religion.

and yes i came to this conclusion because of certain points which i would surely like to mention:

the first and the formost being that we are the only believers left, who follow their book, and prophet firmly. which ofcourse endorses the fact that we believe in what god says to be greater than what we probably can think.
(this i concluded from the fact that if we look at the bible then we can find many scientific and logical errors, which any literate man would not follow, and the fact which one of the jew pasted that they think they are greater than god in making out their problems)

the second and the most prevailing fact is that we have found our social and logical system to be the best ,and quran as an uncontradicted logical book, which can be confirmed by the effectivness and results of it all around the world.

the most important is the fact is that the quran and the hadith encompass all the aspects of ones life and guides us through all of them, irrespective of the fact that many religions tell us just to believe in false gods,and then leave us asatray to choose the truth.

well so now if anybody has any queries on the above three points then please come forward:

[umair]

well i relly wanted to talk on this topic. is anybody willing

[Fallibleone]

Why do you want to talk about it? You firmly believe that your book is without error and you are happy to live your life with this as its overriding guide. Good, fine, that's your decision to make, and I don't think anyone really has a problem with you living your life the way you want to.

You basically accused every Christian in the world of being illiterate in your OP - this is not only obviously incorrect (how can an illiterate person read the Bible?), but it is also not the best conversation-opener I have ever seen.

You have made the point that Muslims are the only ones who still follow their religion properly. Great, now we all know that you think that Muslims are the only ones who follow their religion properly. I agree that within Christianity, certainly, much picking and choosing of what is meant to be taken literally and what is not mean to be taken literally goes on. You have no argument from me there. But that's really where my involvement ends, because as an atheist, I'm not really bothered about following my religion properly. This is mainly because I don't have one.

You and other Muslim contributors have already made the point several times that you do not believe that the Qur'an can be contradicted, and you are aware that there are many people who disagree with you.

What's left to discuss?

[umair]

"Fallibleone"Why do you want to talk about it? You firmly believe that your book is without error and you are happy to live your life with this as its overriding guide. Good, fine, that's your decision to make, and I don't think anyone really has a problem with you living your life the way you want to.

yes we surely are happy to live with our book as it is, because the book is the greatest proof in itself that it is a word from allah(swt), but i cant understand that why does the west want to interfere in the virtues of islam, and tries to imopose its failed laws and system of living upon islamic nations.
why cant america accept the growth of the civilised societies of islam and is ready to destroy them whenever they start flourishing.

You basically accused every Christian in the world of being illiterate in your OP - this is not only obviously incorrect (how can an illiterate person read the Bible?), but it is also not the best conversation-opener I have ever seen.

yes i do accuse every christian to be illeterate, if he is following the bible, which has many scientific and logical errors.

You have made the point that Muslims are the only ones who still follow their religion properly. Great, now we all know that you think that Muslims are the only ones who follow their religion properly. I agree that within Christianity, certainly, much picking and choosing of what is meant to be taken literally and what is not mean to be taken literally goes on. You have no argument from me there. But that's really where my involvement ends, because as an atheist, I'm not really bothered about following my religion properly. This is mainly because I don't have one.

thats is a point , that as an athiest you might not be bothered about my religion and might not consider it to be true, but then you surely can test my claims?

You and other Muslim contributors have already made the point several times that you do not believe that the Qur'an can be contradicted, and you are aware that there are many people who disagree with you.

plz put them forward.

What's left to discuss?

why are you an athiest.

i hope you would like to discuss it.

[Fallibleone]

"Fallibleone"Why do you want to talk about it? You firmly believe that your book is without error and you are happy to live your life with this as its overriding guide. Good, fine, that's your decision to make, and I don't think anyone really has a problem with you living your life the way you want to.

yes we surely are happy to live with our book as it is, because the book is the greatest proof in itself that it is a word from allah(swt),

Foor you, it's proof. That's fine. But there are many others - thinking people - for whom it is not proof. I just want to clarify that I do not mean that you are not a thinking person. You clearly are. What I am saying is that it is possible to not believe the Qur'an to be proof of anything and also to be a thinking person.

but i cant understand that why does the west want to interfere in the virtues of islam, and tries to imopose its failed laws and system of living upon islamic nations.

When you group masses of people together like this, you run the risk of misrepresenting some of them. I am a resident of that part of the world known as 'the west'. I have no interest whatsoever in trying to impose any laws on Islamic nations. I can't speak for anyone else.

why cant america accept the growth of the civilised societies of islam and is ready to destroy them whenever they start flourishing.

I'm not an American, but my personal view is that that 'government' likes to portray itself as some sort of international peace keeper. I think that is very far from the truth. I think that all that 'government' is interested in is protecting its own interests and hang the rest.

However, it has to be noted that I find some aspects of those civilized societies you talk about decidedly uncivilized - I believe this has been discussed elsewhere on this sub-forum and just happens to be my personal opinion too.

You basically accused every Christian in the world of being illiterate in your OP - this is not only obviously incorrect (how can an illiterate person read the Bible?), but it is also not the best conversation-opener I have ever seen.

yes i do accuse every christian to be illeterate, if he is following the bible, which has many scientific and logical errors.

No look - those who follow the Bible by reading it are able to READ, therefore they are not ILLITERATE. If you are illiterate you are unable to read. It is incorrect to call people who can read 'illiterate'. I agree that the Bible has many errors though.

You have made the point that Muslims are the only ones who still follow their religion properly. Great, now we all know that you think that Muslims are the only ones who follow their religion properly. I agree that within Christianity, certainly, much picking and choosing of what is meant to be taken literally and what is not mean to be taken literally goes on. You have no argument from me there. But that's really where my involvement ends, because as an atheist, I'm not really bothered about following my religion properly. This is mainly because I don't have one.

thats is a point , that as an athiest you might not be bothered about my religion and might not consider it to be true, but then you surely can test my claims?

Why do I need to? It's up to you what you believe. Unlike many people, I am not on a mission to convert everyone to my way of thinking. I can accept that others are entitled to their own beliefs. It does not bother me. I do not believe the Qur'an to be the word of God. You do. I've obviously found all the arguments presented so far to be ineffective as methods of explaining how the Qur'an is the word of God and without error, because I am still not a Muslim. If it's so obvious, as many Muslims claim, why is there even a discussion? There is a discussion because it is not obvious. Your claims have already been tested. I'm not a massochist. I'm not interested in cutting off my nose to spite my face. If there is proof, I want to see it so I can know it.

You and other Muslim contributors have already made the point several times that you do not believe that the Qur'an can be contradicted, and you are aware that there are many people who disagree with you.

plz put them forward.

The people who disagree with you? Look around the forum. The majority of people here disagree with you. I can safely make this assertion because there are far more Christians, Jews, Deists, Agnostics, Atheists and others participating than there are Muslims. Of course millions of people can be wrong, so this isn't an argument in itself against Islam. I'm just pointing out that there is no shortage of people who disagree with you.

What's left to discuss?

why are you an athiest.

i hope you would like to discuss it.

Sure, I'll discuss it if you really want to know the answer. I have to warn you though that quotes from the Qur'an are meaningless to me when used as an authoritative comment on anything. I'm an atheist (agnostic atheist, to be precise) because I lack belief in God or gods. I believe that there is not enough (no) evidence to point towards a god's existence at this time. I don't regard any of the holy books currently in circulation to be anything other than man-made. I hold human beings in the highest regard, not a god. Human beings are my main concern.

[Goat]

"Fallibleone"Why do you want to talk about it? You firmly believe that your book is without error and you are happy to live your life with this as its overriding guide. Good, fine, that's your decision to make, and I don't think anyone really has a problem with you living your life the way you want to.

yes we surely are happy to live with our book as it is, because the book is the greatest proof in itself that it is a word from allah(swt), but i cant understand that why does the west want to interfere in the virtues of islam, and tries to imopose its failed laws and system of living upon islamic nations.
why cant america accept the growth of the civilised societies of islam and is ready to destroy them whenever they start flourishing.

So you claim. However, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting. First of all, the claim the 'book itself is without error' is false, because only by the most pigheaded twisting of words can you make it 'without error'. As far as I can see, the Islamic nations are the ones that are failed. When rape victims are executed for 'accusing' their rapist , then that is failed. When women are murdered for not wearing the traditional outfit, that is failed. When that happens, all in the name of Islam, then Islam is corrupt and failed.

You basically accused every Christian in the world of being illiterate in your OP - this is not only obviously incorrect (how can an illiterate person read the Bible?), but it is also not the best conversation-opener I have ever seen.

yes i do accuse every christian to be illeterate, if he is following the bible, which has many scientific and logical errors.

As does the Koran, but many Muslims are too blind to see, enthralled by their religious fever to see the flaws. I have seen Muslims declare science wrong about the origin of comets, because what is known contradicted what was in the Koran.
Now, that is a scientific and logical error there... and if you can't see it, you are just committing a logical error.

You have made the point that Muslims are the only ones who still follow their religion properly. Great, now we all know that you think that Muslims are the only ones who follow their religion properly. I agree that within Christianity, certainly, much picking and choosing of what is meant to be taken literally and what is not mean to be taken literally goes on. You have no argument from me there. But that's really where my involvement ends, because as an atheist, I'm not really bothered about following my religion properly. This is mainly because I don't have one.

thats is a point , that as an athiest you might not be bothered about my religion and might not consider it to be true, but then you surely can test my claims?

The claims have been tested. We are not developed from a blood clot. Comets to not get spit out by the sun. Claims tested.. proven false.

[umair]

Fallibleone"

Sure, I'll discuss it if you really want to know the answer. I have to warn you though that quotes from the Qur'an are meaningless to me when used as an authoritative comment on anything. I'm an atheist (agnostic atheist, to be precise) because I lack belief in God or gods. I believe that there is not enough (no) evidence to point towards a god's existence at this time. I don't regard any of the holy books currently in circulation to be anything other than man-made. I hold human beings in the highest regard, not a god. Human beings are my main concern.

hello fallible,

i presently do not want to discuss the other points again & again , and even though you asked me not to talk in context with the quran i just wanted your reviews on this one verse:




“And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'an) upon our servant, then produce a Surah like thereof and call upon your witnesses (i.e. supporters) other than Allah, if you should be truthful.



But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.”

(2:23-24)

[umair]

"goat"
So you claim. However, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting. First of all, the claim the 'book itself is without error' is false, because only by the most pigheaded twisting of words can you make it 'without error'. As far as I can see, the Islamic nations are the ones that are failed. When rape victims are executed for 'accusing' their rapist , then that is failed. When women are murdered for not wearing the traditional outfit, that is failed. When that happens, all in the name of Islam, then Islam is corrupt and failed.

well i suspect that you might have read the report that i pasted on my topic 'islam is the only truth'
if not then here is a brief, total no. of rapes in america in 2006, 92000
total no. of murders =17000

and in contrast , total no of deaths in saudi arab=38 ,(including 20 for drug trafficking )
, total no of rapes in saudi arab = approx. less than 5.


these are not mere numbers, but speak for the claim of everyone.

The claims have been tested. We are not developed from a blood clot. Comets to not get spit out by the sun. Claims tested.. proven false.

In the Holy Quran, God speaks about the stages of man's embryonic development, 1,400 years before modern day scientists 'discovered' important information on creation of man and his development:

We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed-like substance)...[Holy Quran 23:12-14]

Literally the Arabic word alaqah has 3 meanings:
leech
suspended thing
blood clot

1. "In comparing a leech to the embryo at the alaqah stage, we find similarity between the two." [The Developing Human p.8].
"Also, the embryo as this stage obtains nourishment from the blood of the mother, similar to the leech which feeds on the blood of others." [Human Development as Described in Quran and Sunnah p.36].

2. The second meaning of the word alaqah is 'suspended thing'. The suspension of the embryo, during the alaqah stage, in the womb of the mother very appropriately fits this description.

3. The third meaning of the word alaqah is 'blood clot'. We find that the external appearance of the embryo and its sacs during the alaqah stage is similar to that of a blood clot. This is due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo during this stage. Also during this stage the blood in the embryo does not circulate until the end of the third week. So the embryo at this stage is like a clot of blood.

By examining a diagram of the primitive cardiovascular system in an embryo during the alaqah stage we would notice the external appearance of the embryo and its sacs is similar to that of a blood clot due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo [The Developing Human, p. 65]

So the three meanings of the word alaqah correspond accurately to the descriptions of the embryo at the alaqah stage.

The next stage mentioned in the verse is the mudghah stage. The Arabic word mudghah means "chewed-like substance." If one were to take a piece of gum and chew it in his mouth, and then compare it with the embryo at the mudghah stage, we would conclude that they would be almost identical because of the somites at the back of the embryo that 'somewhat resemble teeth marks in a chewed substance.'


so now plz test your claims .otherwise you might have to prove what you are made of.


and yes plz tell me about this comet thing , i really haven't heard about it and would like to know about it.

[Goat]

"goat"
So you claim. However, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting. First of all, the claim the 'book itself is without error' is false, because only by the most pigheaded twisting of words can you make it 'without error'. As far as I can see, the Islamic nations are the ones that are failed. When rape victims are executed for 'accusing' their rapist , then that is failed. When women are murdered for not wearing the traditional outfit, that is failed. When that happens, all in the name of Islam, then Islam is corrupt and failed.

well i suspect that you might have read the report that i pasted on my topic 'islam is the only truth'
if not then here is a brief, total no. of rapes in america in 2006, 92000
total no. of murders =17000

and in contrast , total no of deaths in saudi arab=38 ,(including 20 for drug trafficking )
, total no of rapes in saudi arab = approx. less than 5.


these are not mere numbers, but speak for the claim of everyone.

The claims have been tested. We are not developed from a blood clot. Comets to not get spit out by the sun. Claims tested.. proven false.

In the Holy Quran, God speaks about the stages of man's embryonic development, 1,400 years before modern day scientists 'discovered' important information on creation of man and his development:

We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed-like substance)...[Holy Quran 23:12-14]

Literally the Arabic word alaqah has 3 meanings:
leech
suspended thing
blood clot

1. "In comparing a leech to the embryo at the alaqah stage, we find similarity between the two." [The Developing Human p.8].
"Also, the embryo as this stage obtains nourishment from the blood of the mother, similar to the leech which feeds on the blood of others." [Human Development as Described in Quran and Sunnah p.36].

2. The second meaning of the word alaqah is 'suspended thing'. The suspension of the embryo, during the alaqah stage, in the womb of the mother very appropriately fits this description.

3. The third meaning of the word alaqah is 'blood clot'. We find that the external appearance of the embryo and its sacs during the alaqah stage is similar to that of a blood clot. This is due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo during this stage. Also during this stage the blood in the embryo does not circulate until the end of the third week. So the embryo at this stage is like a clot of blood.

By examining a diagram of the primitive cardiovascular system in an embryo during the alaqah stage we would notice the external appearance of the embryo and its sacs is similar to that of a blood clot due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo [The Developing Human, p. 65]

So the three meanings of the word alaqah correspond accurately to the descriptions of the embryo at the alaqah stage.

The next stage mentioned in the verse is the mudghah stage. The Arabic word mudghah means "chewed-like substance." If one were to take a piece of gum and chew it in his mouth, and then compare it with the embryo at the mudghah stage, we would conclude that they would be almost identical because of the somites at the back of the embryo that 'somewhat resemble teeth marks in a chewed substance.'


so now plz test your claims .otherwise you might have to prove what you are made of.


and yes plz tell me about this comet thing , i really haven't heard about it and would like to know about it.

Well, part of the reason is the fact that women who report rapes in the Islamic world are punished. I mean, being sentenced to 200 lashes because you got raped does tend to discourage you from reporting things.

That IS more civilized than Iran, where a 16 year old rape victim was hung for 'accusing' someone of rape.

[Fallibleone]

Fallibleone"

Sure, I'll discuss it if you really want to know the answer. I have to warn you though that quotes from the Qur'an are meaningless to me when used as an authoritative comment on anything. I'm an atheist (agnostic atheist, to be precise) because I lack belief in God or gods. I believe that there is not enough (no) evidence to point towards a god's existence at this time. I don't regard any of the holy books currently in circulation to be anything other than man-made. I hold human beings in the highest regard, not a god. Human beings are my main concern.

hello fallible,

i presently do not want to discuss the other points again & again

Why ask the question if you don't want the answer? I know why though - you want to convince me of the error of my ways.

and even though you asked me not to talk in context with the quran i just wanted your reviews on this one verse:




“And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'an) upon our servant, then produce a Surah like thereof and call upon your witnesses (i.e. supporters) other than Allah, if you should be truthful.



But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.”

(2:23-24)

I don't have strong views on it. This is the thing I'm trying to get across. I don't have strong views about things which I don't believe to be true. What I do have strong views about is the fact that people try to say that I should have strong views about it.

I don't care whether other people find merit in my beliefs (or lack thereof) or not. I'm fine with them. I'm not bothered that you're not fine with them, as long as you don't try to stop me having them. I don't care that you think I'm going to hell. I don't care that the Qur'an says about 'the Fire'. I don't care what the Bible says about it either. It's that simple. It has zero relevance for me. Zilch.