Sexual Peversion

[EdTheOvertgeek]

How is having different sexual preferences to the norm immoral? Why is everyone against sick perverts? Other people's sexual preferences are their businesses and no-one else's.

[spiritletter]

that's just splitting hairs. What about the topic at hand??

I think it's important to agree on what is considered to be perverse. I have said twice now, that anything that does not hurt another human being, or in any way coerce them, is not perverse to me.

What is perverse to me is sex with children, because they do not really have a choice in what is going on.

Also, sex that involves the brutalization or enslavement of another human being. This does not include sado-masochistic practices that are entered upon consensually. People are not permanently hurt in these.

[sledheavy]

that's just splitting hairs. What about the topic at hand??

I think it's important to agree on what is considered to be perverse. I have said twice now, that anything that does not hurt another human being, or in any way coerce them, is not perverse to me.

What is perverse to me is sex with children, because they do not really have a choice in what is going on.

Also, sex that involves the brutalization or enslavement of another human being. This does not include sado-masochistic practices that are entered upon consensually. People are not permanently hurt in these.

Masterbation could be considered abusive or unhealthy depending on how often or by how much actual harm is caused, and could even be considered the root of all perverse problems by fundamentalist religions. One lonely person starting with one thing and leading to another and another until he's 'hurting' other people.

This topic really depends on who you ask. In fact as much as we'd like to identify every situation with a direct definition, I don't see how it helps for this topic. Sure lets look at the obviousness of the fact, but we should also consider moral intent, which is only voided to self fulfilment. And because of that, there's no easy line to draw where everyone's going to agree equally.

[spiritletter]

that's just splitting hairs. What about the topic at hand??

I think it's important to agree on what is considered to be perverse. I have said twice now, that anything that does not hurt another human being, or in any way coerce them, is not perverse to me.

What is perverse to me is sex with children, because they do not really have a choice in what is going on.

Also, sex that involves the brutalization or enslavement of another human being. This does not include sado-masochistic practices that are entered upon consensually. People are not permanently hurt in these.

Masterbation could be considered abusive or unhealthy depending on how often or by how much actual harm is caused, and could even be considered the root of all perverse problems by fundamentalist religions. One lonely person starting with one thing and leading to another and another until he's 'hurting' other people.

This topic really depends on who you ask. In fact as much as we'd like to identify every situation with a direct definition, I don't see how it helps for this topic. Sure lets look at the obviousness of the fact, but we should also consider moral intent, which is only voided to self fulfilment. And because of that, there's no easy line to draw where everyone's going to agree equally.

I really don't understand what masturbation can "lead to." I mean, "jeesh, he started masturbating, then he got into robbing banks." Something like that? That's a kind of crude moral judgment, but I can't tell from your syntax whether you are talking about what other people think or what you think.

We ARE talking about a moral issue. "Perversion" implies something bad is happening. And I don't think it trivial that we seek to define perversion.

I have stated very clearly what I think is perverse and what is not perverse. I would think that the appropriate response to that would be to agree or disagree, or whatever, maybe refine the argument.

[sledheavy]

that's just splitting hairs. What about the topic at hand??

I think it's important to agree on what is considered to be perverse. I have said twice now, that anything that does not hurt another human being, or in any way coerce them, is not perverse to me.

What is perverse to me is sex with children, because they do not really have a choice in what is going on.

Also, sex that involves the brutalization or enslavement of another human being. This does not include sado-masochistic practices that are entered upon consensually. People are not permanently hurt in these.

Masterbation could be considered abusive or unhealthy depending on how often or by how much actual harm is caused, and could even be considered the root of all perverse problems by fundamentalist religions. One lonely person starting with one thing and leading to another and another until he's 'hurting' other people.

This topic really depends on who you ask. In fact as much as we'd like to identify every situation with a direct definition, I don't see how it helps for this topic. Sure lets look at the obviousness of the fact, but we should also consider moral intent, which is only voided to self fulfilment. And because of that, there's no easy line to draw where everyone's going to agree equally.

I really don't understand what masturbation can "lead to." I mean, "jeesh, he started masturbating, then he got into robbing banks." Something like that? That's a kind of crude moral judgment, but I can't tell from your syntax whether you are talking about what other people think or what you think.

We ARE talking about a moral issue. "Perversion" implies something bad is happening. And I don't think it trivial that we seek to define perversion.

I have stated very clearly what I think is perverse and what is not perverse. I would think that the appropriate response to that would be to agree or disagree, or whatever, maybe refine the argument.

lol, who goes from masterbating to robbing banks?? Like I said, and like you've repeated, we do have to consider the morality on the matter. And if one person is getting their lonliness on 4 or 5 times a day he's only doing it to please himself. But I guarentee you other people on this forum would also call it abuse because of how often, how damaging (physically or psychologically) or how uncontrollable and selfish this act becomes. The morality in that is little to void.

I'm saying what they're masterbating to gets worse and worse. And by that time you've got someone who started at 18 year olds, and who's moved onto 14 year olds. That's the basis of perversion, *whether or not someone is harmed by it is dependent upon those judging and those being judged.

Fetishes tend to develop regardless, especially the more people experiment, and through a chain of hits per internet site, credit card investments, or even buying a plane ticket to go do it legally, it always goes back to influence.

And this is where personal morality is supposed to come into play but it doesn't. We have to consider the notion of the self action and intent before we consider what harm it's causing.

The difference here is I'm getting the impression from your post that either your more inclined to start with the traditional bureaucracy of posting the definative term, or simply identifying the legalities of the situation.

Yes, you've stated your purpose on morality. But it's an ABSOLUTE to a vast degree of situations. And that's where I'm getting the idea. If we answered every question with an absolute statement, i.e. it's only bad if it harms someone else, someone continues to get through the system because of a loop hole.

Something bad happening between two people, or where it's inflicted upon another person right?

People with fetishes or general addictions tend to feel that they do no harm, and what they do is not perverse. They may know it's not right, but they're not about to quit. Do you find NO problem in that, regardless of whether or not someone else is getting harmed?

[spiritletter]

that's just splitting hairs. What about the topic at hand??

I think it's important to agree on what is considered to be perverse. I have said twice now, that anything that does not hurt another human being, or in any way coerce them, is not perverse to me.

What is perverse to me is sex with children, because they do not really have a choice in what is going on.

Also, sex that involves the brutalization or enslavement of another human being. This does not include sado-masochistic practices that are entered upon consensually. People are not permanently hurt in these.

Masterbation could be considered abusive or unhealthy depending on how often or by how much actual harm is caused, and could even be considered the root of all perverse problems by fundamentalist religions. One lonely person starting with one thing and leading to another and another until he's 'hurting' other people.

This topic really depends on who you ask. In fact as much as we'd like to identify every situation with a direct definition, I don't see how it helps for this topic. Sure lets look at the obviousness of the fact, but we should also consider moral intent, which is only voided to self fulfilment. And because of that, there's no easy line to draw where everyone's going to agree equally.

I really don't understand what masturbation can "lead to." I mean, "jeesh, he started masturbating, then he got into robbing banks." Something like that? That's a kind of crude moral judgment, but I can't tell from your syntax whether you are talking about what other people think or what you think.

We ARE talking about a moral issue. "Perversion" implies something bad is happening. And I don't think it trivial that we seek to define perversion.

I have stated very clearly what I think is perverse and what is not perverse. I would think that the appropriate response to that would be to agree or disagree, or whatever, maybe refine the argument.

lol, who goes from masterbating to robbing banks?? Like I said, and like you've repeated, we do have to consider the morality on the matter. And if one person is getting their lonliness on 4 or 5 times a day he's only doing it to please himself. But I guarentee you other people on this forum would also call it abuse because of how often, how damaging (physically or psychologically) or how uncontrollable and selfish this act becomes. The morality in that is little to void.

I'm saying what they're masterbating to gets worse and worse. And by that time you've got someone who started at 18 year olds, and who's moved onto 14 year olds. That's the basis of perversion, *whether or not someone is harmed by it is dependent upon those judging and those being judged.

Fetishes tend to develop regardless, especially the more people experiment, and through a chain of hits per internet site, credit card investments, or even buying a plane ticket to go do it legally, it always goes back to influence.

And this is where personal morality is supposed to come into play but it doesn't. We have to consider the notion of the self action and intent before we consider what harm it's causing.

The difference here is I'm getting the impression from your post that either your more inclined to start with the traditional bureaucracy of posting the definative term, or simply identifying the legalities of the situation.

Yes, you've stated your purpose on morality. But it's an ABSOLUTE to a vast degree of situations. And that's where I'm getting the idea. If we answered every question with an absolute statement, i.e. it's only bad if it harms someone else, someone continues to get through the system because of a loop hole.

Something bad happening between two people, or where it's inflicted upon another person right?

People with fetishes or general addictions tend to feel that they do no harm, and what they do is not perverse. They may know it's not right, but they're not about to quit. Do you find NO problem in that, regardless of whether or not someone else is getting harmed?

1. Let me see if I'm hearing you correctly: you consider "fetish" to be a bad thing. I don't know if it is or not. If fetish means an object of desire that precludes real contact with another human being, I agree, although I think it's a psychological issue rather than a moral issue.

2. Are you assuming that masturbation is always bad, and inevitably leads to such a condition? I disagree. I think masturbation is just something people do when desire overflows. It's more healthy than some of the other behaviors that result from frustration, like beating someone up.

3. I believe that sexual addiction is not limited to masturbation. A sex addict will use whatever is available, and suffer the usual ultimate disappointment.

Summary: I don't believe that masturbation is inherently bad. I think the deep seated guilt about it is probably propelled by the celibate priesthood, who have their own issues about masturbating in the absence of a sex partner (ditto homosexuality); or, from fundamentalists, who are afraid of life in general, and consider every human impulse as an assault by the devil.

[The Project Hate]

I voted 5, but i'm not sure "pervert" is the right word in this case.

And to me, it depends on what "perversion" were talking about. I consider zoophilia and pedophilia disgusting but the rest is fine to me.

As long as 2 grown-ups ( above 15, sometimes less ) are both willing to do stuff together, why should we care ?

[sledheavy]

lol, WoW. Do we have to revert this entire topic to literal meanings? lol, even though we're apparently now discussing opinions?

Here:

fetish (psychological) - any object or nongenital part of the body that causes a habitual erotic response or fixation. That would OBVIOUSLY be what I was pointing out. Come on now.

And you've yet to discuss with me the detailed moralities of this even after I've mentioned it repeatedly.

Yes, masterbation is a very very healthy, natural experience that should be practiced often. BUT, we're talking about what it is that makes it perverse, so discuss what makes it perverse. You should probably re read what I've already said b/c I'm not about to repeat it.

WHAT DISAPOINTMENT!? Tell me please. It doesn't matter if it's masterbation or not, if it's perverse enough to become an obsession then it would be bad. But like I've said, and you've avoided, someone starting with 18 year olds, and moving to 14 year olds, is masterbation then still moral, legal, ethical, if this obsession occurs regardless if no one's actually getting hurt?

You are the one that started by saying that it's only bad if one person is harming another.

Give me something here!

Sigh....I'm well aware of your opinion on the topic, but if you're not going to at least try to discuss the morality of the situations which make them perverse, then I find no reason to continue this.

ESPECIALLY when you're summary is stating that fundamentalists are affraid of life in general, or that you jump to stereotyping catholic preist.

I'm not about to continue with this discussion if it's going to lead to such ignorance, especially if you can't construct an argument well enough to avoid it. I'm disapointed.