Good Atheist Bad Christian

[spiritletter]

Let me propose my dilemma: what if I know atheists who are fine moral people and Christians who are dishonest? What if I can depend on the atheist in a tight spot but the Christian lacks courage? How is this judged?

[Confused]

Let me propose my dilemma: what if I know atheists who are fine moral people and Christians who are dishonest? What if I can depend on the atheist in a tight spot but the Christian lacks courage? How is this judged?

I would judge it as common sense and use the one I can depend on. I don't see any moral dilemna.

How do you think the Christian God would judge this?

[DerangedProtagonist]

In my view, I would say you know some hypocritical Christians and some moral atheists. In the view of God, it would likely be hypocritical Christians and then those "others" who He doesn't recognize because they don't recognize them.

Only a perverse God would save a greedy, sociopathic blowhard televangelist.

Hypocritical Christians?

A person is hypocritical if he makes claims of morality to which he does not himself conform. A hypocritical Christian is one who claims to adhere to a system of principles, goals and ideals but in fact does not.

Life is driven by what we think is important. Morality is only one of them. What could a Christian value? Here is a list of concepts:

love
relationships
sentimental value
virtue
morality
ideology
law
justice
innocence

Love, virtue, morality, ideology, law, justice:
We could well be "hypocritical" if at some time or another, we failed to demonstrate one or more of these concepts.

Sentimental value and relationships:
This is a bit more of an open issue. Sentimental value refers to objects, concepts or people that are important to us. Different objects, concepts and people have different levels of importance. Relationships can be said to have sentimental value because of the interactions between two people and the history between them, and their own, individually.

Innocence
True open-ness of the mind is when we don't attach, so strongly to what others, tradition, or what society insist are important, but what we intuitively see as important. That is what it means to be "innocent" and is what I believe to be very important in our spiritual journey to God. It is about being "pure of heart."

I prefer not to make any claims of morality, but pursue these other things that I see as important in my spiritual journey. I do not claim to be a virtuous person. My life is driven by what I see as having "sentimental value." Morality is about right and wrong, but too much emphasis on morality destroys one's innocence. What's worse is, we start disregarding our intuition and possibly start following blind logic.

I believe it is indeed possible for an atheist to be better than a Christian. We should not set such high ideals for ourselves. I've got myself into a lot of stupid situations, having made stupid decisions. My bad. Am I still Christian? Is it morality that makes me Christian, or the goal that I seek?

God could, under the theory that He accepts Christians and rejects atheists, accept a greedy person. But I think that unlikely. Christians pursue a relationship with God. You can't serve God and mammon. Greed will always contaminate the relationship, though money by itself will not. Anything that gets in the way of the relationship pulls us further away from Him, so a pompous, unscrupulous televangelist might preach Christianity, but be far from God. He becomes high and mighty in the eyes of the world, yes he's a "hero," but his desire for herodom may likely be his downfall. A televangelist who values his own career and reputation more than morality and virtue is probably not fit to enter God's Kingdom!!!

(It is even more important for Christian leaders to know where they stand with God as they are in positions of authority. That authority and influence can be abused and is much like Jesus' temptation in the desert. Desire for power and control corrupts and leads us astray in our journeys. Christian leaders can easily fall for the trap of trying to control people by popularity, propaganda and making rules for them to follow.)

But then again there are those of us who crave for God more than anything else. On the outside we may be despicable, unscrupulous, scandalous thugs, but deep inside we want to escape.....to get out of this vicious circle.....to turn a new leaf.....if only we could change who we are.....repentant and humble. And you may not be "Christian" (self-proclaimed) at all.

But this is, however, the true spirit of Christianity -- that of humility. So an atheist who doesn't make high claims of morality, respects people for who they are, appreciates their faults, etc. is probably more "Christian" than the ones who claim the title of "Christian." Ultimately, this humility is supposed to lead us to God, which is the next step.

In that sense it's not the formality that comes from saying, "accept Christ and repent" or "seek Redemption" and "do this and you will be saved" that makes us Christian, but the attitude of humility and the desire to find God, not expressed in as much words. The atheist will at that point switch to being "Christian" without knowing it. Jesus' name might not even be mentioned. That is because the "accept Christ", "Redemption" and "do....to be saved" are all pre-conceived notions of Christianity. The real spirit of Christianity, however, comes from the heart.

The significance of Christianity's story may be discovered later, but not essential at that point.

Disclaimer: I don't claim to be humble, but from personal experience am led to believe that humility is what allows us to appreciate the true meaning of Christianity. Perhaps it's our arrogance that has fouled the image of Christianity. We may preach repentance but repentance is often so arrogantly proclaimed that it is not repentance. If we were humble, we probably wouldn't preach at all but just do!!!!

[john_anthony_gonzalez]

Let me propose my dilemma: what if I know atheists who are fine moral people and Christians who are dishonest? What if I can depend on the atheist in a tight spot but the Christian lacks courage? How is this judged?

Depend on the atheist as much as you want, if your only relying on people's works or reliability

[Flail]

Since none of us "know' the answer to the question posed here, we are all free to make up whatever.....

my opinion is that it matters little to God what your 'badges and memberships' might be...and that you can be pleasing to God is spite of your Religion but never because of it....