Yet another sexuality topic

[scorpia]

I'm sorry, I wasn't starting the whole tired Homosexuality vs Christianity debate again. But you haven't quite seen my point, I didn't hate God for condemning the act of sex, but my desire for it, which is such a core part of who someone is. I assume you're straight, can you imagine having to quash the feelings of attraction you have for men? Well, there's arguments backwards and forwards for it and this isn't the thread for them, I was just deatailing my former stance.

And I was detailing mine. Yes I can imagine quashing it since all desire is is some signal your body sends you like pain or hunger demanding treatment it doesn't care what you do so long as it's fixed I usually don't even think about guys I think about what I want done to me and that's all.

Praise reason! No more chains.

Yay for you but not everyone wants to indulge in it if anything sexuality IS the chains

Questions for debate;

Can sexuality, gay, lesbian, straight, or otherwise, be controlled?

Is the demand that you control yours chains or is the sexuality itself the chains?

My stance; I mentioned before there was some sheik that once sommented that it was all the woman's fault that men rape them, for being "uncovered" like not covering meat in front of a cat. I don't really see the God vs sexuality debate as much different and despite what he said about women he also insulted men too, they're not some pathetic cat that can't control themselves. Imagine what that would mean otherwise...............

[WelshBoy]

Quote:
But you still get to eat chocolate,
And you still have your left hand, if you'll pardon my rudeness

Haha, of course you may be rude, go for it. But I'll let you know that it's nowhere near as good or as fulfilling an experience.

Quote:
....do you have a heart? Can't you see how awful this is for someone?
I have never been with anyone, and I'm not about to go looking for someone, I have given up the idea that I would find anyone, and I'm fine on my own. I do not find it "awful."

Well I am genuinly sorry to hear that. But you at least have the biblical permission to go and look, whether you are inclined to or not.

[micatala]

Can sexuality, gay, lesbian, straight, or otherwise, be controlled?

In a word, no.

No one has ever come up with any scheme for doing so.

Attempts at doing so, from monesteries to abstinence programs, have left a wasteland of human misery.

Rape, for example, can be seen as a result of this "control". Why should someone who is intent on violence choose to express it through rape (i.e. by sexual activity)? We are so used to viewing rape as violence that we almost can't see that on the face of it this is absurd. Sexual activity is inherently non-violent, and to use it as violence requires a great deal of social conditioning.

In other words, our morality has made sex such a "bad thing" that people can use it as a violent crime even though it is not a violent act.

This is the result of the religious drive to "control" sexuality.

(In addition, there have been many other negative consequences, from psychopathic sex-murderers to soul-crushing guilt at one's own normal sexual feelings.)

DanZ

Then why do other species, like orangutans, engage in rape? This article has only a short allusion to this. I read a longer article recently I believe in Discover magazine. I will see if I can find it.

There are lots of theories about why rape occurs. Like many things, it is easy to come up with plausible, and wrong, explanations. Here is a negative review of a book positing another theory.

I think the proposition that religion is the root cause for rape is an overly simplistic diagnosis, and likely to be flat false, although I am willing to consider evidence to support this notion, if there is any.

[Goat]

Can sexuality, gay, lesbian, straight, or otherwise, be controlled?

In a word, no.

No one has ever come up with any scheme for doing so.

Attempts at doing so, from monesteries to abstinence programs, have left a wasteland of human misery.

Rape, for example, can be seen as a result of this "control". Why should someone who is intent on violence choose to express it through rape (i.e. by sexual activity)? We are so used to viewing rape as violence that we almost can't see that on the face of it this is absurd. Sexual activity is inherently non-violent, and to use it as violence requires a great deal of social conditioning.

In other words, our morality has made sex such a "bad thing" that people can use it as a violent crime even though it is not a violent act.

This is the result of the religious drive to "control" sexuality.

(In addition, there have been many other negative consequences, from psychopathic sex-murderers to soul-crushing guilt at one's own normal sexual feelings.)

DanZ

Then why do other species, like orangutans, engage in rape? This article has only a short allusion to this. I read a longer article recently I believe in Discover magazine. I will see if I can find it.

There are lots of theories about why rape occurs. Like many things, it is easy to come up with plausible, and wrong, explanations. Here is a negative review of a book positing another theory.

I think the proposition that religion is the root cause for rape is an overly simplistic diagnosis, and likely to be flat false, although I am willing to consider evidence to support this notion, if there is any.

I personally agree that Religion is not the root cause for rape. In some cases, it might be justification for it (rationalization), in the mind of the rapist (not a valid on IMO). That is different that causing it.

On the other hand, religion can be a good motivation for people to justify NOT using rape too.

[Greatest I Am]

It would be impossible to enforce any law on sexual action that is done freely by the party or parties involved.
We cannot be in every bedroom, monitoring the activity to see if it meets the requirements of law.
Therefore the only "control" we can have on free sexual behavior is from a moral position taken by your Church or God.
I have started a thread called Virginity to see what we truly think of sex as being important to the Church.

Regards
DL

[juliod]

Then why do other species, like orangutans, engage in rape? This article has only a short allusion to this. I read a longer article recently I believe in Discover magazine. I will see if I can find it.

Don't you think that is likely a case of anthropomorphising animal behavior? I mean, what is "consent" in the animal world? Are there rights? Are there crimes? No, I think this is just viewing animal behavior through a lens or human social and psychological assumptions that don't apply.

There are lots of theories about why rape occurs. Like many things, it is easy to come up with plausible, and wrong, explanations.

Yes, but words like "wrong" can't be applied to my postings, surely.

I think the proposition that religion is the root cause for rape is an overly simplistic diagnosis, and likely to be flat false, although I am willing to consider evidence to support this notion, if there is any.

Of course, I didn't say that religion is a "root cause" of rape. My point is more subtle. Social views of sex (which are dominated by all current societies by religious views) are what make sexual activity seem like a potent weapon toi those people intent on violence and harm.

For example, has anyone ever been forced to play dominoes at knifepoint? No. But if there was a massive social stigma, taboo, and voyeristic obsession with dominoes, then it is a good bet that violent criminal would start to.

Scorpio mentioned a date-rape scenario. Ask yourself how we could get into such a situation where consent to sexual activity could be assumed by the participation in various non-sexual social activities? Again it is the attempt to force social control on sexuality that leads to this behavior.

The overriding social pressure on women (even today) is that they cannot express sexual interest or desire. This is true even if they have a genuine interest or desire. So we are in a position where it is not expected that any typical woman will make her interests or desires clear.

It's only a step from this to various assumptions that are dangerous: "She is wearing atractive clothing, therefore she wants to have sex with me." or "She danced with me therefore she wants to have sex with me." or "She let me touch her b**bies therefore she wants to have sex with me." If sex were not a taboo subject these false assumptions could not be made. It's the silence that creates the risk.

(Of course, women get it both ways don't they? If a woman does express her sexual interests or desires even slightly openly, she is a "slut" or a "whore" or a "tramp" and it is OK to rape her anyway.)

So, for non-acquaintance rape the causes are pretty much the same as for other violent crime. But the question of "why choose rape?" is answered by the social (religious) taboo on sex. And for acquaintance rape, the question of "Why make the false assumptions?" is also answered by the social taboo.

DanZ

[juliod]

In some cases, it might be justification for it (rationalization), in the mind of the rapist (not a valid on IMO). That is different that causing it.

Except when religious leaders specifically encourage rape (as in the OT or various ethnic conflicts even in modern times).

On the other hand, religion can be a good motivation for people to justify NOT using rape too.

It doesn't work out like that in practise, does it? The bible, overall, is very rape-freindly. And in our modern world it seems to be only religious people who condemn rape victims. So-called "honor killings" are solely based on religion, AFAIK.

It is a widely-held religious point of view that women are "fair game" if they do not adhere to a rigidly-specified rulebook of social behavior. This culminates, of course, in the burka.

DanZ

[scorpia]

Scorpio mentioned a date-rape scenario. Ask yourself how we could get into such a situation where consent to sexual activity could be assumed by the participation in various non-sexual social activities? Again it is the attempt to force social control on sexuality that leads to this behavior.

No, it's because the guy gives the girl a ride home and because he's got a dirty mind the one way of payment he thinks of and demands is sex he doesn't even recognise it as rape he just thinks he's "showing her a good time" because he doesn't think that the girl might not want it as much as he does. Maybe if he knew better than to presume sex was not something to be done at the drop of a hat, this wouldn't be a problem.

It's only a step from this to various assumptions that are dangerous: "She is wearing atractive clothing, therefore she wants to have sex with me." or "She danced with me therefore she wants to have sex with me." or "She let me touch her b**bies therefore she wants to have sex with me." If sex were not a taboo subject these false assumptions could not be made. It's the silence that creates the risk.

Actually, no. In the same book I cited it actualy points out that when the girl says no that's when things get violent, because the guy isn't going to take no for an answer. It even goes ahead to suggest to stop saying no to at least calm the guy down and use that moment to make an escape. Not that saying no the first couple of times wouldn't be helpful. But after that the guy doesn't necessarily get a clue either and silence isn't necessarily to blame.

It doesn't work out like that in practise, does it? The bible, overall, is very rape-freindly. And in our modern world it seems to be only religious people who condemn rape victims. So-called "honor killings" are solely based on religion, AFAIK.

How can it be rape friendly when it involves cities being destroyed purely because someone was someone was (or about to be) raped?

Haha, of course you may be rude, go for it. But I'll let you know that it's nowhere near as good or as fulfilling an experience.

Yeah, but even though I don't have experience I've heard that it can be crap as well

[WelshBoy]

Quote:
Haha, of course you may be rude, go for it. But I'll let you know that it's nowhere near as good or as fulfilling an experience.
Yeah, but even though I don't have experience I've heard that it can be crap as well

Like life, it's what you make of it.

[juliod]

No, it's because the guy gives the girl a ride home and because he's got a dirty mind the one way of payment he thinks of and demands is sex he doesn't even recognise it as rape he just thinks he's "showing her a good time" because he doesn't think that the girl might not want it as much as he does.

How do you think he could come to the state of not thinking "that the girl might not want it as much as he does"? How could he believe that when he has to use force or the credible threat of violence to overcome her protestations and/or physical resistance?

The answer is the social assumption that women must say no even when they mean yes. And that comes from the social/moral/religious pressure on women to never express interest in sexuality.

Maybe if he knew better than to presume sex was not something to be done at the drop of a hat, this wouldn't be a problem.

You mean the problem would go away if the pressure was ratched up a few notches? Doesn't sound credible, does it? That way lies burkas. And look what happens to the societies that have burkas. There the mere existance of women is dangerously sexual.

Maybe if socail pressure on sex and sexuality were not so high then we could free women from the rigidly-defined codes of social behavior that leads to an assumption of consent.

Actually, no. In the same book I cited it actualy points out that when the girl says no that's when things get violent, because the guy isn't going to take no for an answer.

Actually yes. He believes that she has consented and that her resistance is merely a socially-required display of faux-reluctance. He is likely to have experienced this false-denial in his past, and certainly has seen it portrayed innumerable times in classical and popular culture.

How can it be rape friendly when it involves cities being destroyed purely because someone was someone was (or about to be) raped?

Because that isn't the lesson of Soddom and Gemorrah, and rape is specifically encouraged, ordered, or supported in many instances. Look up the concept of "marriage by rape" it was allowable in christendom at least up to late medieval times.


DanZ

[Goat]

Because that isn't the lesson of Soddom and Gemorrah, and rape is specifically encouraged, ordered, or supported in many instances. Look up the concept of "marriage by rape" it was allowable in christendom at least up to late medieval times.


DanZ

And, apparently, it is being practiced in some Mormon splinter groups in Utah and other mid-west states to this very day.