The enemy of our Creator

[placebofactor]

Did Lucifer know the plans of the godhead to create a heaven and an earth? If he knew the plans and knew the Son of God, Jesus Christ was to rule over the creation, was this what Lucifer's rebellion was all about? Scriptures give us a small glimpse into angelic awareness before creation.

Job 38:4–7, The LORD (Jesus) asks Job, “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Verse 7, “when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” The verse implies that angelic beings (including Lucifer) witnessed the creation of the earth. They were not ignorant of it; they rejoiced at its unfolding.

Colossians 1:16–17, Speaking of the Son, “For by Him (Jesus) all things were created... whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things were created through Him and for Him.” The verse affirms the Son’s central role in creation. Because Lucifer was among the “rulers” created by the Son, he would have known that the Son was not only the agent of creation but also its rightful heir.

Did Lucifer know the Son would rule? John 17:5, Jesus prays to his Father, “Glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” This pre-creation glory suggests a known hierarchy within the Godhead. If Lucifer were in the divine council, Ezekiel 28 imagery, he would have witnessed the Son’s exalted position and future authority.

Ezekiel 28:13, "You have been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering ---." Verse 14, "I have set thee so: you were upon the holy mountain of God;" Verse 15, "You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in thee."

Verse 17-18, "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty, you have corrupted your wisdom by reason of your brightness:" "You defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities."

Note, in Psalm 2, it’s the Son who is speaking and announcing the decree. The text itself makes that clear, Verse 7, “I will declare the decree: the LORD has said to Me (the Son).”
Without question, it means the speaker is the Son, not the Father, and not the psalmist.

Lucifer was the “light bearer,” seeking to replace the true Light. He said in Isaiah 14:14, “I will be like the Most High” not just a claim to divinity, but a mimicry of the Son’s image and authority. Lucifer’s rebellion wasn’t random; it was a strategic attempt to preempt the Son’s rule, to hijack the image-bearing creation, and to enthrone himself as the counterfeit “Most High.”

[Capbook]

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John 5:37  And the Father that sent me, he hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his form. 
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"You have not heard" is not the same as "none has heard".

Yes, also the "anytime" is not the same as "your time" 1213.

[Difflugia]

1213, come on now, let's use some common sense. Job is one of the oldest books in the Bible, written between 1500 and 2000 B.C., and if no man has seen the Father, or heard his voice, then it had to be the Son the man Job was speaking with. Verse 1, "And the LORD (YHWH) answered Job. I don't care if the LORD spoke out of a whirlwind or from the top of a mountain, or from the depths of the ocean; no man has ever heard the Father's voice until Matthew 3:17, some 2000 years after the book of Job was written, when he said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

So, is it your theological construction that every time a human being interacted with Yahweh in the Old Testament, it was Jesus?

In Genesis 2:16-17, Jesus was talking to Adam? In Genesis 3:8, it was Jesus walking in the garden? In Genesis 17:1, Abraham was talking with Jesus? In Exodus 4:24, it was Jesus that tried to kill Moses?

[placebofactor]

1213, come on now, let's use some common sense. Job is one of the oldest books in the Bible, written between 1500 and 2000 B.C., and if no man has seen the Father, or heard his voice, then it had to be the Son the man Job was speaking with. Verse 1, "And the LORD (YHWH) answered Job. I don't care if the LORD spoke out of a whirlwind or from the top of a mountain, or from the depths of the ocean; no man has ever heard the Father's voice until Matthew 3:17, some 2000 years after the book of Job was written, when he said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

So, is it your theological construction that every time a human being interacted with Yahweh in the Old Testament, it was Jesus?

You asked, In Genesis 2:16-17, Jesus was talking to Adam? My answer is Yes.

You asked, In Genesis 3:8, it was Jesus walking in the garden? My response is yes.

You asked, In Genesis 17:1, Abraham was talking with Jesus? My answer is Yes.

In Exodus 4:24, it was Jesus that tried to kill Moses?

Difflugia, 4000 years ago or more, after the creation, the New Testament writers, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, give us the name of our Creator. His New Testament name would not be made known until his birth.

In the Old Testament, God has many names, such as Elohim, Jehovah, I AM, El Shaddai, the Almighty, YHWH, etc. Genesis 1:1 is the first time we see God's name, "Elohim." Only after the New Testament was written was a personal name given to all of the above titles of God; His name is Jesus. So, only in the New Testament, the writers reveal the incarnate name of God. His name is Jesus, but it was not known before His birth in Bethlehem.

Again, in Genesis 1:1, the first name used for God is Elohim. And in Genesis 2:4, the divine name YHWH appears. So, the New Testament reveals the personal, incarnate name associated with all these Old Testament titles. The name Jesus means “YHWH saves.” For the past 2000 years, Christians have understood this as the fullest revelation of God’s identity. Elohim is not a personal name but a title meaning “God.” Jesus is understood in Christian theology as the incarnate revelation of the God of the Old Testament, but the New Testament does not say His name was “unknown” in the sense of being hidden; rather, it was not yet given until His birth (Matthew 1:21).

We have to understand, in the beginning, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit were sent by the Father to create heaven and the earth. This creation was to honor and glorify the Father and the Son. When man sinned, it grieved the Son, and we are told, Genesis 6:6, "It repented the LORD (Jesus) that he had made man on the earth." He then said in verse 7, "And I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth," Except for Noah, his family, and Enoch, who had been taken into heaven.

Now, a plan for redemption had to be made to bring mankind and the rest of creation back into the bosom of its Creator. The plan was a virgin birth of the Son of God, born of a woman. Untainted, holy blood from the Son himself had to be shed to redeem mankind.

Hebrews 9:22, "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood, and without shedding of blood is no remission."

Romans 5:9, "and Ephesians 1:7, "Being now justified by His = (Jesus) blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." So, our creator made himself lower than the angels, became a servant, and gave himself for us, suffered our punishment, so that we could be saved; saved only if we believe by faith.

[Difflugia]

So, is it your theological construction that every time a human being interacted with Yahweh in the Old Testament, it was Jesus?

Difflugia, 4000 years ago or more...

So, I pored through that to see if it answers my question. Fascinating though it is, it doesn't. Did you mean it to? Now, you don't have to answer if you don't want to, but I'm still curious. You seemed to make some distinction between the being speaking to Job and the person whose voice the onlookers heard in Matthew 3:17. What's that distinction? How does it apply to other times God interacted with humans in the Old Testament?

[placebofactor]

So, is it your theological construction that every time a human being interacted with Yahweh in the Old Testament, it was Jesus?

Difflugia, 4000 years ago or more...

So, I pored through that to see if it answers my question. Fascinating though it is, it doesn't. Did you mean it to? Now, you don't have to answer if you don't want to, but I'm still curious. You seemed to make some distinction between the being speaking to Job and the person whose voice the onlookers heard in Matthew 3:17. What's that distinction? How does it apply to other times God interacted with humans in the Old Testament?

Sorry, I'm getting to be an old man, losing focus.
The question: Is there any Biblical evidence that any human ever interacted with the Father? According to the Bible, no human has ever seen or interacted with the Father directly in His unveiled essence. Every physical, visible, or audible encounter with “God” in the Old Testament is either with the pre-incarnate Christ, an angelic messenger representing God, or a mediated revelation such as a voice, fire, cloud, glory, etc.
The New Testament makes this claim explicit:

John 6:46, “No one has ever seen the Father.”
John 1:18, “No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son… has made Him known.”

So, Jesus is the visible Yahweh, and every encounter with God in human form” is the Son, not the Father.
1 Timothy 6:16, The Father dwells in “unapproachable light… whom no one has seen or can see.” These verses rule out the Father being the one who appeared physically in the Old Testament.

Jacob Wrestling with God (Genesis 32). Jacob wrote, “I have seen God face to face.”
Hosea 12:3–4 clarifies: he wrestled with the “Angel (messenger or mediator) of the LORD,” who is not a created angel. He speaks as God, receives worship, forgives sins, and bears the divine name. This is widely understood as the pre-incarnate Christ.

Abraham sees three men. One of them is repeatedly called Yahweh and speaks as God. Abraham talks to Him face-to-face, He eats with Abraham, and also promises Isaac’s birth. Since the Father cannot be seen, this visible LORD is best understood as the Son.

Exodus 33, Moses Speaking “Face to Face.” This passage confuses many people because it says, “The LORD spoke to Moses face to face,” But it also says, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live.”

Simple solution: Moses saw a visible manifestation of the Son, and Moses did not see the Father’s essence. John 1:18, Jesus said, “He who has seen Me has seen the Father” fits this thought perfectly. Every time someone sees, hears, eats, wrestles, or speaks with God in human form, it’s never the Father, it’s always the Son, the visible LORD, the Word of God.

This is why Jesus can say, “Before Abraham was, I AM.”
“Whoever has seen Me has seen the Father.”
“No one knows the Father except the Son.”

[BruceLeiter]

[Replying to Difflugia in post #12]

I think, @Difflugia, that there is enough evidence in the Bible to say that the three Persons of the one God are all involved in each divine action, from the Father through Jesus or the second Person before his conception by the Spirit. They work together in perfect, divine harmony. For example,

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 
Joh 1:2  He was in the beginning with God. 
Joh 1:3  All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. 

Also, Jesus' seven "I am" claims in the Gospel of John identify him directly with the God of Moses' burning-bush conversation, because God claims that he is the great I AM:

Joh 6:32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
Joh 6:34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”
Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Jhn_8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
Jhn_10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.
Jhn_10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Jhn_10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
Jhn_11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
Jhn_14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Jhn_15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
Jhn_15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

With these “I ams,” Jesus identifies himself with the God of Moses’ burning bush:
Exo 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Exo 3:15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.

And Jesus’ claim to be the good Shepherd says that he is King David’s divine Shepherd:
Psa 23:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.