The ULTIMATE test. ONE QUESTION

[Avoice]

Jesus tells his followers how to test him. So listen carefully what he says:

"My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him."

Here is Jesus talking. Who does he want to give glory to?

"Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, BE WITH ME WHERE I AM ; that they may behold MY GLORY, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."

Be with him where HE is? Where is that? It must be a different place than where the father is because he didnt say where WE ARE.
ME ME ME ME

Soooo.... using the test given by Jesus as to his righteousness HE FAILS!!
Whose glory does he seek? What spin can Christians put on this? Im listening.

[1213]

...
He said MY GLORY

But he didn't say he is seeking his glory.

[1DoubtingThomas]

[Replying to Avoice in post #1]



.
Avoice,

Simply put, JESUS IS GOD, therefore, respectfully your initial post in its questions are MOOT!


JESUS IS GOD, as shown in only a few of many biblical passages as shown below:

1. JESUS AS GOD ANSWERED: "Don"t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father? (John 14:9)

2. JESUS IS GOD: Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours. (2 Peter 1:1)

3. JESUS AS GOD SAID: Then he said to Thomas, Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe. Thomas answered him, My Lord and my God! (John 20:27-28)

4. JESUS' INSPIRED WORDS SAID HE IS GOD:"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, (Colossians 2:9)

5. JESUS' INSPIRED WORDS SAID HE IS GOD: "The woman said, I know that Messiah (called Christ) is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us. Then Jesus declared, I, the one speaking to you"I am he. (John 4:25-26)



Now, if the pseudo-christian wants to embarrassingly show us that Jesus is only the Son of God and not god as the passages show above, THEN THAT IS A BLATANT BIBLICAL CONTRADICTION, then that opens up a can of worms that even their Satanic pseudo-christian Apologetic Books cannot defend, and remain intelligent looking in the aftermath!


Avoice, just tell the Bible IGNORANT "1213" and the equally bible IGNORANT "LightBearer" to just run along now, so as to save themselves from further biblical embarrassment in front of the membership AGAIN!





.

[William]

[Replying to Avoice in post #1]

Here is the thing I think remains unnoticed context re your critique - "be with me where I am" in recognition that without "The Father" there is no glory...

The context is:

The glory he wants them to behold is explicitly from the Father (which you have given me).

To be with him where he is means to stand in that relationship of dependence " the node aligned to its source. Without the Father, there is nothing to behold.

So the real point is not ME versus the Father, but ME only because of the Father.
That folds neatly back into the test of John 7 " hes not seeking glory apart from the Father, but visibility of what the Father already gave.

Do you deny this? If so, why?

[William]

It is true that much of Christianity worships the various images of Jesus which effectively evidences their lack of understanding as to what "following Jesus" actually means...and this extends to worship of written words - and the Jews meantime are still stuck with following the law...another form of misdirected worship...as if GOD were in the law...

What this puts a finger on is exactly the structural tension Jesus himself pointed at.

He warned against mistaking the image (whether a person, a law, or even scripture itself) for the source.

To follow him wasnt about exalting his image but about entering into the same alignment " the relationship of dependence on the Father.

Worship of Jesus-as-image or of Torah-as-law both fall into the same trap: substituting the vessel for the origin.

So the irony is that in trying to guard Gods honor, both patterns can end up eclipsing it " Jews by clinging to the scaffolding of law, Christians by absolutizing the messengers image. Both are versions of misdirected worship if they obscure the relational source.

[Avoice]

[Replying to William in post #13]

The "given me" is in reference to his followers.

Its still me, me, me with Jesus.

Not YOUR glory
Not OUR glory
He says MY glory

[1213]

Avoice, just tell the Bible IGNORANT "1213" and the equally bible IGNORANT "LightBearer" to just run along now...

JESUS IS GOD, as shown in only a few of many biblical passages as shown below:

None of them says Jesus is the God.

1. JESUS AS GOD ANSWERED: "Don"t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father? (John 14:9)

Bible tells Jesus is the image of God. So, obviously, if you have seen the image of God, you have seen also God.

[Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation....
Col. 1:14-16

2. JESUS IS GOD: Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours. (2 Peter 1:1)

3. JESUS AS GOD SAID: Then he said to Thomas, Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe. Thomas answered him, My Lord and my God! (John 20:27-28)

"Our God and Savior Jesus Christ" is not the same as "Our God Jesus Christ", especially if we believe Jesus who says there is only one true God who is greater than him.

4. JESUS' INSPIRED WORDS SAID HE IS GOD:"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, (Colossians 2:9)

God lives also in disciples of Jesus. That doesn't mean they are the God.

Dont you know that you are a temple of God, and that Gods Spirit lives in you?
1 Cor. 3:9-11, 16

5. JESUS' INSPIRED WORDS SAID HE IS GOD: "The woman said, I know that Messiah (called Christ) is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us. Then Jesus declared, I, the one speaking to you"I am he. (John 4:25-26)

Jesus is the Messiah is not the same as being the God.

[William]

[Replying to William in post #13]

The "given me" is in reference to his followers.

Its still me, me, me with Jesus.

Not YOUR glory
Not OUR glory
He says MY glory

Yes, I see what youre saying. But if we all stripped phrases from their context, we could make plenty of biblical text sound self-centered. That would be dishonest. The text itself makes clear that the glory is given, not self-claimed. With context, your argument has no merit " without it, the whole thing collapses.

[1DoubtingThomas]

[Replying to 1213 in post #16]


.

1213, in addressing your total BIBLE IGNORANCE in your post #16 relative to my 5 Jewish Bible passages showing that Jesus, is in fact, GOD!!! Whereas YOU only gave your "lackluster opinions" to try in vain to prove that Jesus is not God, which doesn't count in a meaningful discussion where only FACTS prevail, understood? .... LOL!

Therefore, at your embarrassing expense this time, you are to do the following to be true to form in a discussion debate:

You are to use an actual biblical passage for each individual passage of mine shown below AGAIN, in trying to prove your wrongful Satanic position that Jesus is not God in each said given passage! GET IT? Huh?

BEGIN:

1. JESUS AS GOD ANSWERED: "Don"t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father? (John 14:9)

2. JESUS IS GOD: Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours. (2 Peter 1:1)

3. JESUS AS GOD SAID: Then he said to Thomas, Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe. Thomas answered him, My Lord and my God! (John 20:27-28)

4. JESUS' INSPIRED WORDS SAID HE IS GOD:"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, (Colossians 2:9)

5. JESUS' INSPIRED WORDS SAID HE IS GOD: "The woman said, I know that Messiah (called Christ) is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us. Then Jesus declared, I, the one speaking to you"I am he. (John 4:25-26)



1213, have you forgotten that your Jesus as God is watching you calling him a LIAR when you said in the passages above that he is not God, where you will dearly pay upon your Judgment Day for sure because you blasphemed your God!

"Nothing in all creation is hidden from Gods sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account." (Hebrews 4:13)


1213, I have many more TRUTHFUL Jewish Bible passages in showing your Jesus to be God, therefore you will have a lot of homework in the near future!






.

[RBD]

Jesus tells his followers how to test him. So listen carefully what he says:

"My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him."

Here is Jesus talking. Who does he want to give glory to?

"Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, BE WITH ME WHERE I AM ; that they may behold MY GLORY, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."

Be with him where HE is? Where is that? It must be a different place than where the father is because he didnt say where WE ARE.
ME ME ME ME

Soooo.... using the test given by Jesus as to his righteousness HE FAILS!!
Whose glory does he seek? What spin can Christians put on this? Im listening.

Jesus first answers as a man of flesh and blood on earth, giving all glory to the Father in heaven; and then as the resurrected man Christ Jesus in heaven, receiving all glory from the Father in heaven:

Jhn 17:1
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

Heb 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Going out of context to purposely twist someone's words, is so old, it's juvenile and tiresome.

[tam]

Peace to you Avoice,

Jesus tells his followers how to test him. So listen carefully what he says:

"My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him."

Here is Jesus talking. Who does he want to give glory to?

"Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, BE WITH ME WHERE I AM ; that they may behold MY GLORY, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."

As I believe others have said, He does give glory to His Father:

"Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, BE WITH ME WHERE I AM ; that they may behold MY GLORY, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."

"Which THOU hast given me..."

He is giving glory and credit to His Father.

Be with him where HE is? Where is that? It must be a different place than where the father is because he didnt say where WE ARE.
ME ME ME ME

He is with the Father. He says it in verse 13 of the same prayer to His Father:

“I am coming to you now..."

Im listening.

Are you?


May you (and anyone) be granted ears to hear if you wish them, so that you may hear the truth in this or any other matter.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy