Summary argument of why the Turin Shroud is authentic

[otseng]

From the thread How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant? ...

Synopsis of argument the Shroud of Turin is the burial cloth of Jesus Christ:

What is the Shroud of Turin?

The Shroud of Turin is a centuries old linen cloth that bears the image of a crucified man.

https://www.shroud.com/

Shroud of Turin, also called Holy Shroud, Italian Santa Sindone, a length of linen that for centuries was purported to be the burial garment of Jesus Christ. It has been preserved since 1578 in the royal chapel of the cathedral of San Giovanni Battista in Turin, Italy. Measuring 4.3 metres (14 feet 3 inches) long and 1.1 metres (3 feet 7 inches) wide, it seems to portray two faint brownish images, those of the back and front of a gaunt, sunken-eyed, 5-foot 7-inch man—as if a body had been laid lengthwise along one half of the shroud while the other half had been doubled over the head to cover the whole front of the body from face to feet. The images contain markings that allegedly correspond to the crucifixion wounds of Jesus, including thorn marks on the head, lacerations (as if from flogging) on the back, bruises on the shoulders, and various stains of what is presumed to be blood

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Shroud-of-Turin

Summary of arguments on the Shroud of Turin

There's two main views on the shroud:
A) It's a medieval fake that was produced by some artist
B) It's the burial shroud of Jesus of Nazareth

Arguments against position A:

1. It is not artwork.

a. This is the conclusion of the 1978 STURP team.

No pigments, paints, dyes or stains have been found on the fibrils. X-ray, fluorescence and microchemistry on the fibrils preclude the possibility of paint being used as a method for creating the image.

We can conclude for now that the Shroud image is that of a real human form of a scourged, crucified man. It is not the product of an artist. The blood stains are composed of hemoglobin and also give a positive test for serum albumin.

https://www.shroud.com/78conclu.htm

b. Silence from art community on the TS

viewtopic.php?p=1106931#p1106931

c. Silence in art journals on the TS

viewtopic.php?p=1108361#p1108361

d. Testimony from Wesselow and Tite that it is not artwork

viewtopic.php?p=1107626#p1107626

viewtopic.php?p=1108258#p1108258

2. Top arguments for fake position are dubious.

a. C-14 dating

viewtopic.php?p=1114068#p1114068

b. d'Arcis memo

viewtopic.php?p=1110516#p1110516

c. McCrone and paint particles

viewtopic.php?p=1118417#p1118417

d. Borrini and Garlaschelli

viewtopic.php?p=1117907#p1117907

viewtopic.php?p=1117908#p1117908

3. There are no viable naturalistic explanations for the origin of the image dispite several attempts.

a. Luigi Garlaschelli

viewtopic.php?p=1107921#p1107921

b. Joe Nickell

viewtopic.php?p=1113694#p1113694

Arguments refuting position A and supporting position B:

1. It is the most scientifically studied artifact.

viewtopic.php?p=1106931#p1106931

2. Features of the shroud predate the invention of scientific technologies by hundreds of years.

a. Photography

viewtopic.php?p=1104936#p1104936

b. 3-D imaging

viewtopic.php?p=1106347#p1106347

c. X-ray

viewtopic.php?p=1105542#p1105542

d. UV imaging

viewtopic.php?p=1115523#p1115523

viewtopic.php?p=1118525#p1118525

3. Image and blood have features we cannot fully explain.

a. Image only on topmost fibers

viewtopic.php?p=1105228#p1105228

b. Blood is still red

viewtopic.php?p=1105590#p1105590

4. Features of the shroud predate the use of art techniques by hundreds of years.

a. Halftone

viewtopic.php?p=1106542#p1106542

b. Airbrush

viewtopic.php?p=1106604#p1106604

c. Hyperrealism

viewtopic.php?p=1106892

5. Image is medically accurate.

viewtopic.php?p=1106892

6. Features depicted are contrary to artwork and instead depict how it should have actually happened.

a. Scourging

viewtopic.php?p=1116515#p1116515

b. Nail through wrist

viewtopic.php?p=1105368#p1105368

c. Crown of thorns

viewtopic.php?p=1116603#p1116603

d. No body image under blood

viewtopic.php?p=1105790#p1105790

e. Rigor mortis

viewtopic.php?p=1107205#p1107205

7. Image formation is not based on what we visually would see, but on how the cloth would be affected by the imaging mechanism. On the first order, things are depicted correctly, but on the second order, we see things missing as well as distortions.

viewtopic.php?p=1107092#p1107092

8. Blood and image patterns precisely match the gospel accounts and uniqely points to Jesus of Nazareth.

viewtopic.php?p=1119259#p1119259

9. There are additional details on the TS that are not present in the gospel accounts.

a. Dislocated shoulder

viewtopic.php?p=1105467#p1105467

b. Whip marks

viewtopic.php?p=1119062#p1119062

c. Shoulder abrasions

viewtopic.php?p=1117201#p1117201

d. Herringbone weave

viewtopic.php?p=1119994#p1119994

10. Features of the shroud point to 1st century Jerusalem origin.

a. Vanillin test

viewtopic.php?p=1113484#p1113484

b. Dimensions of cloth match Assyrian cubit

viewtopic.php?p=1119548#p1119548

c. Side strip seam matches Masada seam

viewtopic.php?p=1119872#p1119872

d. Banding not seen in medieval weaving, but in ancient weaving

viewtopic.php?p=1120100#p1120100

e. Calcium particles on the feet area matching Jerusalem

viewtopic.php?p=1120231#p1120231

f. Wide Angle X-ray Scattering (WAXS) points to first century

viewtopic.php?p=1120354#p1120354

g. DNA analysis has more people touching the shroud from Middle East than Europe

viewtopic.php?p=1120453#p1120453

viewtopic.php?p=1120776#p1120776

The preponderence of scientific evidence of the shroud as noted above points to the authenticity of the shroud as the burial cloth of Jesus of Nazareth. However, the argument above does not claim anything miraculous occurred or that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah. It is through studying the body image we can conclude the body image was a result of something outside of current science.

Summary of top body imaging theories

The imaging theories can be broadly grouped into naturalistic explanations (NE) and non-naturalistic/supernatural explanations (SE).

Naturalistic explanations can be subdivided into a work of an artist (NE-art) or something that would happen naturally without any involvement of an artist (NE-nature).

NE-art would involve things like painting, scorch, dye, rubbing, photograph, and bas-relief. This is the least likely since this was the conclusion of the 1978 STURP investigation:
viewtopic.php?p=1124026#p1124026

I've also argued there is virtual silence from the art community on the TS. Yet, the TS is the most scientifically studied artifact in human history. So, it makes no sense the TS is a work of art.

I've spent time on the bas-relief in several posts arguing it is not viable:
viewtopic.php?p=1113694#p1113694
viewtopic.php?p=1124310#p1124310
viewtopic.php?p=1124427#p1124427

I've also addressed the proto-photograph method:
viewtopic.php?p=1124231#p1124231

The top NE-nature explanation is the Maillard reaction, proposed by Ray Rogers. I've addressed that at:
viewtopic.php?p=1124081#p1124081

Three top SE explanations are corona/electrostatic discharge, neutron emission, and cloth collapse.

I've addressed the corona/electrostatic discharge:
viewtopic.php?p=1124174#p1124174

and the neutron emission:
viewtopic.php?p=1124551#p1124551

I presented the cloth collapse here:
viewtopic.php?p=1123740#p1123740

There are actually more theories than what I've presented, but most all the others are variations on the ones above.

There is no theory that fully explains all the features of the body image, but the one that explains the most is Jackson's cloth collapse theory.

viewtopic.php?p=1125096#p1125096

Therefore Jackson's cloth collapse theory involving the body dematerializing best explains the body image compared to all other imaging theories.

Blood stain theories

No viable artistic method has been proposed to account for the blood stains and there has been no attempt to replicate all the blood markings. So, at this time, really the only viable explanation for the blood on the shroud is the actual burial of Jesus.

viewtopic.php?p=1125806#p1125806

Dematerialization and resurrection

So, what could've caused Jesus to dematerialize? We have no naturalistic scenarios to explain this. It would be a miracle. It is not a proof of Jesus' resurrection, but it would be a rational conclusion given all the evidence from the shroud.

The obvious point of weakness in the design argument from the Shroud is
that our evidence that weak dematerialization was the mechanism by which the
Shroud was formed, while impressive, is not conclusive. However, the conjecture
that a very powerful intelligence would be responsible for such an extraordinary
event seems highly plausible.

The design argument from the
Shroud, however, on the Jackson-Trenn theory, shows that some intelligent,
purposive, and very powerful agent has acted in a specific event in comparatively
recent history.

https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/wiebe.pdf

So, what we have with the Shroud of Turin is verifiable evidence that supports the claim of the resurrection of Jesus.

On this theory, the Shroud offers evidence for two of the three crucial elements
implied by the claim that a Resurrection took place. This is an important
achievement, for two centuries of biblical criticism, much of it directed against the
Resurrection, in conjunction with increased standards of evidence as science has
been incorporated into all forms of critical thinking, have undermined confidence
both inside and outside the Church that the Resurrection ever occurred.

https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/wiebe.pdf

What is also interesting is Jesus said his resurrection would be the only evidence he would provide that he is the Messiah.

When asked by the Pharisees to show that he is from God, Jesus replied with the sign of Jonah.

[Mat 12:38-40 NIV] Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from you." 39 He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

He also had said he would rebuild the temple in 3 days.

[Jhn 2:18-19 NIV] 18 The Jews then responded to him, "What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?" 19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

Both of these are references to him being resurrected after three days.

This evidence was not only for the Jews of the first century. It is evidence for us today as well. We have the actual shroud of Jesus in our hands today that testifies to Jesus being the Messiah.

viewtopic.php?p=1125229#p1125229

[otseng]

The contradiction therein is both the claim the body dematerialized AND that the body regenerated.

How is it a contradiction? The body rematerialized after it had dematerialized.

Is the assumption from Supernaturalist Philosophy that because something can't be seen, it must be "immaterial"?

Not sure what you're saying. What I'm saying is the resurrection is not just some "spiritual" event where the body was interred and remained in the grave, but it was only resurrected in a spiritual sense. The physical body actually disappeared from within the cloth and tomb and then physically reappeared outside the tomb.

What about technological explanations?

What do you mean? For example?

[William]

[Replying to otseng in post #11]

What about technological explanations?

What do you mean? For example?

So, one can ascertain from your reply that you have not considered that possibility.

[otseng]

So, one can ascertain from your reply that you have not considered that possibility.

I have not considered things that have not been proposed by others.

[William]

[Replying to otseng in post #13]

I have not considered things that have not been proposed by others.

I can help you there.

Consider this proposal.

I am enjoying lunch in a town square. A personality is talking publicly, claiming that "Jesus is the Messiah" and that the Shroud of Turin is evidence of this being true, because it offers" evidence of not only Jesus' body dematerializing but also resurrecting."

I ask the personality that if Jesus is this "messiah". where is Jesus, and the personality tells me that Jesus "ascended into the clouds above" and so I ask the person if they have considered that all of this might be due to advanced technology and he replies that he doe not know what I am talking about, but that although Jesus left the planet, he will return "one day" in all his glory with a host of angelic beings and "save the worthy believers" and the event is known as "The Second Coming".

So I ask the personality to consider that if such an event did happen in his lifetime, how would he be able to tell if the event was made possible due to advanced technology - as a more natural and thus likely explanation, than believing (and thus claiming) it was a supernatural event?

If you were that personality, how would you answer the question put forth for your consideration?

[otseng]

So I ask the personality to consider that if such an event did happen in his lifetime, how would he be able to tell if the event was made possible due to advanced technology - as a more natural and thus likely explanation, than believing (and thus claiming) it was a supernatural event?

If you were that personality, how would you answer the question put forth for your consideration?

What you are appealing to is some unknown explanation, which is not really an explanation. It's like saying, "I don't know how it happened, but it is not any that have been proposed." What we can only go by is the proposals that have been proposed so far and analyze those to see which one fits best with all the data. Yes, additional explanations can be offered in the future, but those cannot be assessed until they have been proposed.

[William]

[Replying to otseng in post #15]

I can help you there.

Consider this proposal.

I am enjoying lunch in a town square. A personality is talking publicly, claiming that "Jesus is the Messiah" and that the Shroud of Turin is evidence of this being true, because it offers" evidence of not only Jesus' body dematerializing but also resurrecting."

I ask the personality that if Jesus is this "messiah". where is Jesus, and the personality tells me that Jesus "ascended into the clouds above" and so I ask the person if they have considered that all of this might be due to advanced technology and he replies that he doe not know what I am talking about, but that although Jesus left the planet, he will return "one day" in all his glory with a host of angelic beings and "save the worthy believers" and the event is known as "The Second Coming".

So I ask the personality to consider that if such an event did happen in his lifetime, how would he be able to tell if the event was made possible due to advanced technology - as a more natural and thus likely explanation, than believing (and thus claiming) it was a supernatural event?

If you were that personality, how would you answer the question put forth for your consideration?

What you are appealing to is some unknown explanation, which is not really an explanation. It's like saying, "I don't know how it happened, but it is not any that have been proposed."

Correct.
But you seemed to have not taken into consideration that the Christian street-preacher is the one who made the claim about something that is "going to happen" and that the happening will be a supernatural event, so the question is relevant to that as well as to the claim that things which have happened - such as the creation of the shroud of Turin was due to something "supernatural" having occurred and since both the supernatural and advanced technology are unknown, proposing the one as "possible" and the other as "impossible" by way of explanation is inconsistent re truthfulness/consistent with symptoms of conformation and cognitive bias.

What we can only go by is the proposals that have been proposed so far and analyze those to see which one fits best with all the data. Yes, additional explanations can be offered in the future, but those cannot be assessed until they have been proposed.

The point being, the "Second Coming of Jesus" HAS been proposed, so the question is a fair one to be asking in that context.

So I will ask again.

Q: IF the "Second Coming of Jesus" did happen in a Christians lifetime, THEN how would he/she be able to tell if the event was made possible due to advanced technology - as a more natural and thus likely explanation - than believing (and thus claiming) it was a supernatural event?
---------------

Clarke's Third Law, states, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

"Magic" = belief in supernaturalism as the answer to all unexplained biblical phenomena whether a past event or a future event.

[otseng]

So I will ask again.

Q: IF the "Second Coming of Jesus" did happen in a Christians lifetime, THEN how would he/she be able to tell if the event was made possible due to advanced technology - as a more natural and thus likely explanation - than believing (and thus claiming) it was a supernatural event?

Asking again will result in the same answer - "What we can only go by is the proposals that have been proposed so far and analyze those to see which one fits best with all the data."

Also, what is being investigated is the TS and the resurrection. This thread is not about the Second Coming or any other topic.

[William]

[Replying to otseng in post #17]

What is being investigated is the TS and the resurrection. This thread is not about the Second Coming.

No.

The claim is that the TS exists and is evidence of a supposed supernatural occurrence. So what was the point of the resurrection, and how does that stand alone in regard to both the accension and the hoped for return of the messiah you claim the TS proves Jesus is?

All you have is the TS. What you do not have is the messiah. So how is that evidence of any messiah and how is the supposed existence of a messiah or the actual existence of the TS, evidence of supernaturalism?

[otseng]

All you have is the TS. What you do not have is the messiah. So how is that evidence of any messiah and how is the supposed existence of a messiah or the actual existence of the TS, evidence of supernaturalism?

I already posted this in the OP about his messiahship:

What is also interesting is Jesus said his resurrection would be the only evidence he would provide that he is the Messiah.

When asked by the Pharisees to show that he is from God, Jesus replied with the sign of Jonah.

[Mat 12:38-40 NIV] Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from you." 39 He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

He also had said he would rebuild the temple in 3 days.

[Jhn 2:18-19 NIV] 18 The Jews then responded to him, "What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?" 19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

Both of these are references to him being resurrected after three days.

This evidence was not only for the Jews of the first century. It is evidence for us today as well. We have the actual shroud of Jesus in our hands today that testifies to Jesus being the Messiah.

viewtopic.php?p=1125229#p1125229

[William]

All you have is the TS. What you do not have is the messiah. So how is that evidence of any messiah and how is the supposed existence of a messiah or the actual existence of the TS, evidence of supernaturalism?

I already posted this in the OP about his messiahship:

What is also interesting is Jesus said his resurrection would be the only evidence he would provide that he is the Messiah.

When asked by the Pharisees to show that he is from God, Jesus replied with the sign of Jonah.

[Mat 12:38-40 NIV] Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from you." 39 He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

He also had said he would rebuild the temple in 3 days.

[Jhn 2:18-19 NIV] 18 The Jews then responded to him, "What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?" 19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

Both of these are references to him being resurrected after three days.

This evidence was not only for the Jews of the first century. It is evidence for us today as well. We have the actual shroud of Jesus in our hands today that testifies to Jesus being the Messiah.

viewtopic.php?p=1125229#p1125229

As we can see, there is no mention of any of this - either in the story of Jonah, or of Jesus or indeed any of the stories of the Bible which positively show that any supernatural thing is involved.

So, given the claim that the TS is evidence of Jesus "being the messiah", if we accept the claim, it is still neither evidence of supernaturalism nor is it evidence of the world being saved, although if that was all there was to the world getting saved, then the world is saved by the messiah not only dying but also resurrecting. That is all that is required.
________-
Searches reveal:

Messiah Meaning.
1.
the promised deliverer of the Jewish nation prophesied in the Hebrew Bible.
2.
a leader regarded as the saviour of a particular country, group, or cause.
"the club's supporters have been tempted to regard him as a messiah rather than a manager"

Why is Jesus called Messiah?
The terms Messiah and Christ both mean 'anointed one. ' Throughout the New Testament there is evidence of Jesus as the chosen one through his resurrection from the dead and the miracles he performed. The Messiah was sent to save humanity, and this salvation came about through his death and resurrection.

_________-

Is your argument that the existence of the TS confirms that the world is saved?