Billions of Years to Form a Bond and a Relationship

[Skeptical]

I know that Jehovah's Witnesses aren't the only non-Trinitarians Christians out there, therefore, this thread is for Jehovah's Witnesses and any non-Trinitarians. However, I will use Jehovah's Witnesses' Bible and website as a reference for this thread.

Therefore, Matthew 20:28 says:

Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister+ and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.”

(Although I could have sworn that their Bible used to say a "corresponding ransom" at one time )

But anyway, I understand the whole concept of equal justice and exchanging the perfect human life of Jesus for the lost perfect life of Adam, however, I found a jw.org article titled A Corresponding Ransom for All (and with my luck, is probably outdated too ), which includes the ideas that:

4. Satan’s rebellion raised what issues?

4 God also had to settle other issues raised by Satan’s rebellion, issues of far greater significance than the human predicament. Satan cast a dark shadow across God’s good name by accusing Jehovah of being a liar and a cruel dictator who deprived his creatures of knowledge and freedom. (Genesis 3:1-5) Furthermore, by seemingly thwarting God’s purpose to fill the earth with righteous humans, Satan made God appear to be a failure. (Genesis 1:28; Isaiah 55:10, 11) Satan also emboldened himself to slander God’s loyal servants, charging that they served Him only out of selfish motives. If placed under pressure, boasted Satan, none of them would remain loyal to God!​—Job 1:9-11.

5. Why could God not ignore Satan’s challenges?

5 These challenges could not be ignored. If they were left unanswered, confidence in and support for God’s rulership would finally be eroded. (Proverbs 14:28) If law and order deteriorated, would havoc not reign throughout the universe? God thus owed it to himself and to his righteous ways to vindicate his sovereignty. He owed it to his faithful servants to allow them to demonstrate their unbreakable loyalty to him. This meant dealing with the plight of sinful humanity in a way that gave precedence to the paramount issues. He later told Israel: “I​—I am the One that is wiping out your transgressions for my own sake.”​—Isaiah 43:25.

Therefore, what I was wondering about was: When it came to the part concerning the match between the integrity between the perfect man Adam and the perfect man Jesus, was it really an even exchange since Adam who lived for maybe a few months with a relationship with God (who really knows), while Jesus, before he became Jesus, lived with God and had a relationship with God and bonded with God for billions of years? Anyone have any thoughts?

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to Skeptical in post #1]

Adam undoubtedly was alive for many years even before Eve came on the scene. Not billions of years, but enough to show what he really thought about the law-giving heavenly Father.

The scriptures state that they (male and female) were both created on the sixth day.

Genesis 1:

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Skeptical in post #1]

Adam undoubtedly was alive for many years even before Eve came on the scene. Not billions of years, but enough to show what he really thought about the law-giving heavenly Father.

The scriptures state that they (male and female) were both created on the sixth day.

Genesis 1:

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

The 6th day was not a day of 24 hours. It could have been many years. Those "days" were an undetermined amount of time. This can be plainly seen when we read Genesis 2:4 which says that God created everything "in the day." So did He create everything in one 24 hour day? The morning and evening of a day meant the beginning and end of an undetermined amount of time.

[1213]

We believe that Adam and Eve were indeed created perfect since they were created by God who does nothing that is short of perfection (see Deut 32:4)

Ok, thank you, that is a good scripture in this case.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to Skeptical in post #1]

Adam undoubtedly was alive for many years even before Eve came on the scene. Not billions of years, but enough to show what he really thought about the law-giving heavenly Father.

The scriptures state that they (male and female) were both created on the sixth day.

Genesis 1:

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

The 6th day was not a day of 24 hours. It could have been many years. Those "days" were an undetermined amount of time.

A day is clearly and frequently defined in Genesis as a "evening and a morning!" That is a well determined amount of time. Your "many years" would be very many evenings and mornings -- not one of each as the God inspired scriptures state!

This can be plainly seen when we read Genesis 2:4 which says that God created everything "in the day." So did He create everything in one 24 hour day?

No, the re-creation of the earth was over a six day period.

"In the day" simply means in the era, period, or generation in Genesis 2:4:


Genesis 2:4
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

"Generations is plural. There are six days of generations in the re-creation - not one.

But I believe that you know that -- it's obvious.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Skeptical in post #1]

Adam undoubtedly was alive for many years even before Eve came on the scene. Not billions of years, but enough to show what he really thought about the law-giving heavenly Father.

The scriptures state that they (male and female) were both created on the sixth day.

Genesis 1:

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

The 6th day was not a day of 24 hours. It could have been many years. Those "days" were an undetermined amount of time.

A day is clearly and frequently defined in Genesis as a "evening and a morning!" That is a well determined amount of time. Your "many years" would be very many evenings and mornings -- not one of each as the God inspired scriptures state!

This can be plainly seen when we read Genesis 2:4 which says that God created everything "in the day." So did He create everything in one 24 hour day?

No, the re-creation of the earth was over a six day period.

"In the day" simply means in the era, period, or generation in Genesis 2:4:


Genesis 2:4
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

"Generations is plural. There are six days of generations in the re-creation - not one.

But I believe that you know that -- it's obvious.

What is obvious is that the term "day" is an undetermined amount of time, as Genesis 2:4 gives evidence of. I stand by that.

[myth-one.com]

What is obvious is that the term "day" is an undetermined amount of time, as Genesis 2:4 gives evidence of. I stand by that.

What is "undetermined" about one evening and one morning being one day?

Genesis 1:5
And the evening and the morning were the first day.

<================== Also explain the following =====================>

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (Exodus 20:8-11)

If the term "day" is an "undetermined amount of time" as you claim, then the definition of Sabbath above becomes meaningless!!

Are we to labor for six undetermined amounts of time, and then rest for a seventh undetermined amount of time?

Please explain to me how that works.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #16]

I'm done explaining to you. You would rather not be affected by anything I try to say. Have a good one.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #16]

I'm done explaining to you. You would rather not be affected by anything I try to say. Have a good one.

Yes, I understand your quandary!

It's difficult to argue against the scriptures.

[JehovahsWitness]

As far as sacrifices and exchanges are concerned, is there anything that says that the payer can't overpay?

If God wants a snow-white lamb and you offer two of them, is that wrong? Have you done anyone a disservice? Has anyone been offended? Has anyone even been upset?

We may not be able to "make change" so to speak, and for example, if we only have a conjoined lamb we must sacrifice the whole thing or nothing. But for all we know, the universe could easily be set up to make proper change if we overpay. It just can't remedy the situation if we decide to be stingy and keep the conjoined lamb, since that's a matter of free will.

God no longer requires animal sacrifices but under the Mosaic law there were "voluntary sacrifices" where the person could give as much as they like.

JW

[Skeptical]

It's not the length of time that is important to the strength of relationships, but the quality.

Not according to jw.org:

13 Jehovah and his firstborn Son enjoyed close association for billions of years​—long before the starry heavens and the earth were created. How they must have loved each other! (John 3:35; 14:31) This dear Son was just like his Father. That is why the Bible refers to the Son as “the image of the invisible God.” (Colossians 1:15) Yes, even as a human son may closely resemble his father in various ways, this heavenly Son reflected his Father’s qualities and personality. https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/ ... s-christ/

Therefore, I'm not understanding why some of the answers given at this forum by JWs are different from what is at jw.org. And according to JWs, information from jw.org is information from God.

Adam did not appreciate all the good things given to him by Jehovah. He was perfect, yet chose to go against God and become independent of Him. Jesus did appreciate everything from Jehovah, and he proved that a perfect man could maintain integrity, though Adam eschewed it. The whole point is that Jesus loved God enough to suffer agony and death, though Adam did not love God enough to show Him his love by leaving the one tree alone. "Just as through the disobedience of the one man [Adam] many were constituted sinners, likewise also through the obedience of the one person [Jesus] many will be constituted righteous." (Romans 5:19) That's the bottom line....who showed obedience and integrity? It didn't matter how long the relationship was for. BTW, Adam undoubtedly was alive for many years even before Eve came on the scene. Not billions of years, but enough to show what he really thought about the law-giving heavenly Father.

Undoubtedly? Based on what? What scripture? Also, "what he really thought about the law-giving heavenly Father"? But why wouldn't Adam have only thought good things about God? Because you make it sound as if he had some sort of undercurrent of ingratitude, disrespect, or maybe a lack of love and appreciation that he was carrying around with him.