Invented or Discovered?
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Moderator: Moderators
Lacking reasonable evidence for an intelligent designer why can't they deny it?elijahpne wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:46 am [Replying to Miles in post #9]
Miles wrote:To whomever scientists - atheist or not - attribute the intelligence they found in the Universe through objective research, study and analysis, the one fact they can't deny is that there is an intelligent designer whether they attribute it to, subjectively, metaphorically: Nature, Chance, Evolution -Dirac did not believe in God. He once said: "God used beautiful mathematics in creating the world," but here he used 'God' as a metaphor for nature.
Not that it matters here, but as a point of interest I think it's worth mentioning that Hoyle rejected the Big Bang theory. The reason it doesn't matter is that the opinion of Hoyle and any other noted personality you care to cite doesn't add one iota of substance to the evidence of an intelligent designer. Got some evidence, then I'm all ears. Going to cite a list of Who's-Who who believe this and that, then I'm taking a nap.The eminent scientist, Fred Hoyle, himself an atheist discounted Nature and attributed it directly to "a superintellect". Note what the Wikipedia article about him says:
After saying "that biomaterials with their amazing measure of order must be the outcome of intelligent design." Wikipedia adds:
Though Hoyle declared himself an atheist, this apparent suggestion of a guiding hand led him to the conclusion that "a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and ... there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature." - Wikipedia, Fred Hoyle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hoyle
Indeed it does, but go ahead and post one. It might be interesting to have a discussion on cdesign proponentsists. I don't think one has been posted in some time.As to why others would conclude differently, Hoyle remarked:
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I notice, however, we're already off on a tangent from our original discussion as to whether math is discovered or invented. This discussion about intelligent design probably belongs to another sub-forum.
Right on. Its existence was a fact long before anyone was around to recognize it.Tcg wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:55 pm [Replying to Miles in post #1]
There is a parallel with nature. Did the word "tree" cause the hard wooded plant to exist? Of course not. The word was developed to identify that which already existed.
Tcg
Yes, I used words only as an example of how mathematical notation may have developed.Miles wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:25 pmHere you're talking about words whereas in the OP I was talking about a concept; however, I do agree that its existence was a fact long before anyone was around to recognize it.Tcg wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:55 pm [Replying to Miles in post #1]
There is a parallel with nature. Did the word "tree" cause the hard wooded plant to exist? Of course not. The word was developed to identify that which already existed.
Tcg
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Yeah, I edited my reply just before you posted this. I do recognize it as only an example.Tcg wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:35 pmYes, I used words only as an example of how mathematical notation may have developed.Miles wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:25 pmHere you're talking about words whereas in the OP I was talking about a concept; however, I do agree that its existence was a fact long before anyone was around to recognize it.Tcg wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:55 pm [Replying to Miles in post #1]
There is a parallel with nature. Did the word "tree" cause the hard wooded plant to exist? Of course not. The word was developed to identify that which already existed.
Tcg
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Tcg
I guess it's just my own simplistic way to understand it. Both mathematics and language can be very complex, but both seem to be used to explain what already exists or at least what we think already exists.Miles wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:42 pmYeah, I edited my reply just before you posted this. I do recognize it as only an example.Tcg wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:35 pmYes, I used words only as an example of how mathematical notation may have developed.Miles wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:25 pmHere you're talking about words whereas in the OP I was talking about a concept; however, I do agree that its existence was a fact long before anyone was around to recognize it.Tcg wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:55 pm [Replying to Miles in post #1]
There is a parallel with nature. Did the word "tree" cause the hard wooded plant to exist? Of course not. The word was developed to identify that which already existed.
Tcg
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Tcg
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I must say that I lean toward mathematics being about discovery more than invention.