Who collected the Ransom?

Nick Hallandale · Post by **Nick Hallandale** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:24 pm

The New Testament says that Jesus paid a ransom for many, for all.

Matthew 20:28 KJV
28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1Timothy 2:6 KJV
6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

So who collected the ransom?
Was it God?
Was it the Devil?
Was it Mankind?
Tell me who you think collected the ransom and why ?

Bro Dave · Post by **Bro Dave** » Thu May 04, 2006 10:56 pm

Easyrider wrote:With my former post in mind, please explain how you (as God) would create man with free will but at the same time not allow sin to exist?

God's intention was not to create us in final perfection, i.e. robots. This is true. God created us with the potential to be come "perfect, even as I Am perfect". He expected us initially to respond with our animal instincts, and to do evil. That is, to not do His will, because it was not clear to us yet. Then, as we grow, and come to recognise right and wrong, we exercise our free will but still occasionally,(or more often) choose not to do what is right. That is sin. Ultimately, some carry this to the fatal stage of actively working against what they know to be God's will, and that is iniquity. From there it is dangerous and difficult to find your way back to wanting and accepting God's love. This causes ultimate distruction, because having given up God, the only absolute reality, you cease to exist.
But, for those who choose to follow God's will, and to try to become perfect as He is perfect, there unfolds an adventure like none other! Wow! Partnership with God! It just does not get any better.

Bro Dave

bernee51 · Post by **bernee51** » Fri May 05, 2006 3:47 am

Easyrider wrote:With my former post in mind, please explain how you (as God) would create man with free will but at the same time not allow sin to exist?

AFAIAC, sin does not exist. On that basis, I cannot answer your question.

redstang281 · Post by **redstang281** » Fri May 05, 2006 3:28 pm

bernee51 wrote:
redstang281 wrote: God can do anything.
Then why allow 'sin' in the first place?

To create love. Love is not real unless there is the option to not love.

redstang281 wrote: God hates sin. God chooses not to tolerate sin.
The only reason 'sin' exists is because 'god' (supposedly) exists.

(IMV, 'sin' does not exist as there is no god to sin against. Remove god, sin disappears.)

Hence, one of the reasons I believe people choose to not believe in God.

redstang281 wrote: That is why he chose to have the debt paid.
As god caused sin in the first place it was always his responsibility to pay the debt.

Simply allowing for it is not the same as creating it.

redstang281 · Post by **redstang281** » Fri May 05, 2006 3:35 pm

bernee51 wrote:
Easyrider wrote:With my former post in mind, please explain how you (as God) would create man with free will but at the same time not allow sin to exist?

AFAIAC, sin does not exist. On that basis, I cannot answer your question.

Sin is a distortion, a corruption, a mutation (if I may) of holiness. When Satan chose to rebel against God using his free will he created sin. Sin is essentially the act of rebelling from God. It wasn't sin that caused Satan to rebel it was Satan's free will that allowed for it. The result of Satan's rebellion was man kind's predisposition towards that nature.

bernee51 · Post by **bernee51** » Sat May 06, 2006 3:59 am

redstang281 wrote:
bernee51 wrote:
Easyrider wrote:With my former post in mind, please explain how you (as God) would create man with free will but at the same time not allow sin to exist?

AFAIAC, sin does not exist. On that basis, I cannot answer your question.

Sin is a distortion, a corruption, a mutation (if I may) of holiness.

Do you consider man to have 'holiness' or is that a preserve of 'god'

redstang281 wrote: When Satan chose to rebel against God using his free will he created sin.

Does the 'he' in this statement refer to god or satan?

redstang281 wrote: Sin is essentially the act of rebelling from God. It wasn't sin that caused Satan to rebel it was Satan's free will that allowed for it.

I was under the impression that it was the 'sin of pride' which brought about Satan's downfall.

Cathar1950 · Post by **Cathar1950** » Sat May 06, 2006 6:41 pm

So God had a debt we owed because he charged us. We can't pay it so it is a bad debt. Then God kills himself(or his son) over his debt.
Some how it doesn't make sense. It seem that they took a metaphor and made it a doctrine.

Our children are fighting for our country. Some die and we say they died for our country.
Jesus death like the many thousands the Romas killed died the same death.

Easyrider · Post by **Easyrider** » Sat May 06, 2006 7:11 pm

Cathar1950 wrote:So God had a debt we owed because he charged us. We can't pay it so it is a bad debt.

Christ paid the debt so it's not a bad debt anymore. We might say that it was unfair to be born into sin because individually we had nothing to do with it in the beginning. So God made it simple for us.

As the Bible says, God gives to each man a measure of faith; he provided the sin atonement, Jesus Christ. He then provides an eternal life of joy and happiness in heaven. If man doesn't wan't to partake of all that he can't blame God.

bernee51 · Post by **bernee51** » Mon May 08, 2006 12:54 am

Easyrider wrote: As the Bible says, God gives to each man a measure of faith;[

Then he short changed me - I have no faith whatsover in this god of yours, and even less in anything other than the bible being a cultural history of from an agrarian society.

Easyrider wrote: He then provides an eternal life of joy and happiness in heaven.

Struggling with the impermanance of the phenomenal world has led to many such beliefs. Why is yours anything special?

Easyrider wrote: If man doesn't wan't to partake of all that he can't blame God.

I am partaking in a growing understanding of the nature of our being...the kingdom of 'god' is within. Blaming your god for any shortcomings on that score would be an exercise in futility.

Easyrider · Post by **Easyrider** » Mon May 08, 2006 4:56 pm

bernee51 wrote: Then he short changed me - I have no faith whatsover in this god of yours, and even less in anything other than the bible being a cultural history of from an agrarian society.

Matthew 13 - The Parable of the Sower

1 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 He who has ears, let him hear."

10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.' 16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

18"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22 The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23 But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

bernee51 · Post by **bernee51** » Mon May 08, 2006 8:38 pm

Easyrider wrote:
bernee51 wrote: Then he short changed me - I have no faith whatsover in this god of yours, and even less in anything other than the bible being a cultural history of from an agrarian society.
Matthew 13 - The Parable of the Sower

There is absolutely no point in quoting your favourite mythological/metaphorical texts at me. They may do something for you but they ceased doing that for me a long time ago. Frankly I find the Vedas and the Bhagavad Gita to be more inspirational and provide more guidance as to life's meaning and purpose.