Sin limit

[Princess Luna On The Moon]

Is there a sin limit for saved Christians? Say a man (or woman) is saved and a devout Christian, but they have a wild shooting spree and kill a few people. Will they still go into heaven if they ask for forgiveness? Why or why not? Is there a limit, or is god's forgiveness boundless as long as the perpetrator prays afterwards?

This is tying in with the loophole where one can do whatever that want and still be forgiven, making Christianity nothing more than 'the god band-aid.' I'm not saying it is, I'm just curious to see if anyone here thinks there is such a limit.

[Ooberman]

Because something isnt logically contradictory doesnt mean its likely or even possible or plausible.

You may keep all options open, but this is nothing but fallacious thinking.

Im sure you dont operate under the beleif that all things could happen. There is the process of discernment. Reason.

The issue here is that, i think, your position is that most people who commit genocide dont do a 180 and become worthy of Heaven. (Of course, if that person claims their commands are from God, you may endorse it).
The hidden premise is that "what good is religion that cant make the world a better place if its logically possible for everyone to do evil, then repent at the right time" (or some variation).

Of course, WLC is known to say Christianity is for sinners, and thus makes the point that, yes, sin all you want, but if you want Heaven, repent properly before you die.

Your rebuttal, to the implied loophole, is that most people dont or cant do this.
Thats fine, but it is done, and so your criticism is defeated.

The answer is: yes you can sin all you want under christianity, and still enjoy the fruits of Heaven, according to the doctrine.

The reason this is so uncomfortable for the Christian is that it means the 12 million Jewish victims of Hitler have less of a chance of making it to Heaven than a truly repentant Hitler.

And who can deny that in his dying brain Hitler may have intimated true repentance for his actions?



Overall, its a rather silly concept of repentance, substitutionary atonement, heaven, christian exclusivity, etc.

Universalism is far more Just, but does nothing to limit one from doing evil.

Secularism is by far the best, which relies on society to mete out rewards and punishments in the real world. After all, Heaven isnt even real.

[Wordleymaster1]

Is there a sin limit for saved Christians? Say a man (or woman) is saved and a devout Christian, but they have a wild shooting spree and kill a few people. Will they still go into heaven if they ask for forgiveness? Why or why not? Is there a limit, or is god's forgiveness boundless as long as the perpetrator prays afterwards?

This is tying in with the loophole where one can do whatever that want and still be forgiven, making Christianity nothing more than 'the god band-aid.' I'm not saying it is, I'm just curious to see if anyone here thinks there is such a limit.

Most would say that as long as the person is truly sorry, they will be forgiven. So, if a guy kills 20 million people, but truly confesses his sins on his death bed, he will go to heaven.
But a man that doesn't believe in God and never asks for forgiveness, but donates $1million to his local church upon his death will do to hell.
What a scam really: threaten people with fear, guilt and eternal torture, throw in a 'give God some of your money' and 'follow the bible, which is God's word that shows itself to be true'
How can anyone ever see this as anything but a human scam is mind blowing to me at least.
But I guess people are NEEDY and will believe ANYTHING they want to make them feel better.

[ttruscott]

Is there a sin limit for saved Christians? Say a man (or woman) is saved and a devout Christian, but they have a wild shooting spree and kill a few people. Will they still go into heaven if they ask for forgiveness? Why or why not? Is there a limit, or is god's forgiveness boundless as long as the perpetrator prays afterwards?

This is tying in with the loophole where one can do whatever that want and still be forgiven, making Christianity nothing more than 'the god band-aid.' I'm not saying it is, I'm just curious to see if anyone here thinks there is such a limit.

Academically, as I understand Christianity, all sin is equal, that is, all sin has an equal and ultimate disvalue with GOD. Therefore, while we judge sins as worse (high suffering) or less (less suffering), from GOD's pov they are the same and have equal and ultimate moral disvalue.

It is the person's relationship with GOD that accounts for the word, saved, not whether the sin is less or more. A person who, by their free will, has accepted YHWH as their GOD is then under HIS promise that if they should ever sin and become evil in HIS sight, HE would do all the work necessary to bring that person back to their first true free will decision to follow HIM, to break the intense addiction to evil they have self created by their decision to be evil, and to teach that person to never sin again.

To achieve the redemption of HIS elect who did become sinful by their free will, GOD supposedly gave them pre-determined lives (their free will already corrupted by their addiction), on earth perfectly designed to bring them to a full understanding (have their eyes opened) of their sinfulness and their guilt to bring them to repentance and back to GOD, while at the same time opening their eyes to the nature of the evil of the reprobate as eternal so they choose holiness, that is, totally siding with GOD in HIS decision that the judgment is necessary to keep heaven free of the contamination of those who rejected HIS deity and promises of salvation by their free will.

It seem unreasonable that the GOD who is love and doing HIS best for HIS sinful elect would program their lives such as to allow their sin to express itself in the worst possible ways in human society, that it, mass murder, psychopathic torture of victims etc, even though their evil is just as bad as the demonic psychopaths.

It is also a tenet of much of Christianity that while evil is the nature of people due to their previous choice, that the expression of that evil urge into action is managed by GOD to achieve HIS redemptive purposes with HIS sinful elect. That is, HE mitigates both the evil of the non-elect and of the elect to lessen the suffering and guilt of HIS chosen ones to only the necessary minimum to achieve HIS goals with them. It seems to go against the tenor of this doctrine to think that He would then allow HIS sinful elect to indulge their evil in the most atrocious sins available to humans.

Then there is the problem that 'saved' refers to the fulfillment of HIS promise to HIS elect that they would have their addiction to sin cured so that they'd be free of the judgment upon evil. Thus if they are saved, they are already legally free of condemnation and are in the process of their wills being freed for addiction to sin and being trained up to a commitment to righteous holiness. imo, In this context it is impossible to think that HE would allow any of HIS sinful elect to express any lingering sin by indulging in a world class horror.

So, while the OP scenario is technically possible, and if it did, yes, the outcome would be salvation, it is, within the Christian context, a straw argument as with GOD in charge, it would never happen.

Peace, Ted

[Yahu]

Is there a sin limit for saved Christians? Say a man (or woman) is saved and a devout Christian, but they have a wild shooting spree and kill a few people. Will they still go into heaven if they ask for forgiveness? Why or why not? Is there a limit, or is god's forgiveness boundless as long as the perpetrator prays afterwards?

This is tying in with the loophole where one can do whatever that want and still be forgiven, making Christianity nothing more than 'the god band-aid.' I'm not saying it is, I'm just curious to see if anyone here thinks there is such a limit.

You seem to be under the impression that there are no consequences for a Christian that violates Yah's law. This is far from the truth. There are consequence both in this life and in the eternal life.

The wages of sin is death. That is for this life. It will kill us. By violating Yah's law, it opens the doors for the forces of the enemy to punish us.

I have had a coven try to kill me but couldn't with their witchcraft. They inquired why it wouldn't work. The answer they got was I have to violate a law of Yah that carried a death penalty before any death curse would work. The spiritual realm was bound by Yah's law as well. So they then set traps for me trying to get me to violate a law that would allow them to kill me. They failed and their spells/curses rebounded upon themselves. Remember witchcraft carries a death penalty by Yah's law. Those that didn't repent of their witchcraft are now dead.

There is also a loss of rewards/status in the eternal realm for our sinful actions. Our life is our job interview for eternity. Those that use salvation as a license to sin will basically be of the lowest status of those in the heavenly kingdom. Who wants to be the heavenly janitor or beggar on the streets of gold?

Christians are held to a higher standing for our own sins. We reap a 7x punishment whereas witchcraft for example only gets back a 3x. Of course those involved in witchcraft get the remaining punishment inflicted upon them after their death.

The 'sin limit' is what Yah tolerates until He allows our death. That death is the end of our chance to gain eternal rewards.

Now 'going to heaven' isn't our reward. Salvation is a gift and that gets us into the kingdom. The rewards (inheritance) in the kingdom are based on our actions and in overcoming evil within our own life. We grow spiritually and earn greater status, position and wealth in the eternal kingdom.

Being forgiven of a sin will not stop the consequences. For example, my wife forgave her gang rapists that asked for her forgiveness but they still served their prison sentence. Six of them begged her forgiveness while two others mocked her and Yah's wrath while in prison. Those two were beaten and raped to death in prison.

[Haz]

[Replying to post 1 by Princess Luna On The Moon]

There is no sin limit as Christians cannot be charged with sin.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay ANY THING (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect?

Christians "cannot sin" (1John 3:9), we've "ceased from sin" (1Pet 4:1).

This is referring to our position in Christ, as believers.
It's not saying we are perfect in physical behavior and thought.

And when Christians do wrong they will not profit by it. Consider King David who committed adultery and murder. God put away his sin. But King David suffered consequences for his selfish actions.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 1 by Princess Luna On The Moon]

There is no sin limit as Christians cannot be charged with sin.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay ANY THING (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect?

Christians "cannot sin" (1John 3:9), we've "ceased from sin" (1Pet 4:1).

This is referring to our position in Christ, as believers.
It's not saying we are perfect in physical behavior and thought.

And when Christians do wrong they will not profit by it. Consider King David who committed adultery and murder. God put away his sin. But King David suffered consequences for his selfish actions.

We are confusing the concept of sin here. Sin is just doing something wrong. The various consequences do not change that definition. So, yes Christians sin. The question is how that sin is dealt with.

[Haz]

[Replying to post 1 by Princess Luna On The Moon]

There is no sin limit as Christians cannot be charged with sin.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay ANY THING (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect?

Christians "cannot sin" (1John 3:9), we've "ceased from sin" (1Pet 4:1).

This is referring to our position in Christ, as believers.
It's not saying we are perfect in physical behavior and thought.

And when Christians do wrong they will not profit by it. Consider King David who committed adultery and murder. God put away his sin. But King David suffered consequences for his selfish actions.

We are confusing the concept of sin here. Sin is just doing something wrong. The various consequences do not change that definition. So, yes Christians sin. The question is how that sin is dealt with.

Hi bluethread,
God gives us specific definitions of sin. We should use them and then we'll understand scripture.

For example:
1: Sin is transgression of the law, 1John 3:4.
Christians cannot be charged with this sin as we're not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).

2: unrighteousness is sin, 1John 5:17.
Christians cannot be charged with this sin as our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

3: Unbelief in Jesus is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9.
Christians believe on Jesus.

These sins are all related.
To be under the law is to reject Christ because such seek to establish their own righteousness by works. To be under the law such will be found guilty of ALL the law (Rom 3:19, James 2:10) and thus condemned as unrighteous.

So if we use God's definitions of sin we will understand why scripture says Christians cannot sin. Whilst Christians are not perfect in physical behavior, our position in Christ is such that we cannot be charged with sin.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 1 by Princess Luna On The Moon]

There is no sin limit as Christians cannot be charged with sin.
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay ANY THING (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect?

Christians "cannot sin" (1John 3:9), we've "ceased from sin" (1Pet 4:1).

This is referring to our position in Christ, as believers.
It's not saying we are perfect in physical behavior and thought.

And when Christians do wrong they will not profit by it. Consider King David who committed adultery and murder. God put away his sin. But King David suffered consequences for his selfish actions.

We are confusing the concept of sin here. Sin is just doing something wrong. The various consequences do not change that definition. So, yes Christians sin. The question is how that sin is dealt with.

Hi bluethread,
God gives us specific definitions of sin. We should use them and then we'll understand scripture.

For example:
1: Sin is transgression of the law, 1John 3:4.
Christians cannot be charged with this sin as we're not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).

2: unrighteousness is sin, 1John 5:17.
Christians cannot be charged with this sin as our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

3: Unbelief in Jesus is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9.
Christians believe on Jesus.

These sins are all related.
To be under the law is to reject Christ because such seek to establish their own righteousness by works. To be under the law such will be found guilty of ALL the law (Rom 3:19, James 2:10) and thus condemned as unrighteous.

So if we use God's definitions of sin we will understand why scripture says Christians cannot sin. Whilst Christians are not perfect in physical behavior, our position in Christ is such that we cannot be charged with sin.

Haz, while I accept this at surface value, I do not think it a good practice to engage in sin because of it...

Not being charged with sin is not the same as NOT being disciplined for sin, eh? Discipline is painful, that is, causes suffering. And every adopted legitimate son of GOD is disciplined...[Hebrews 12:8 If you are not disciplined--and everyone undergoes discipline--then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all.

Hebrews 12:11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

Discipline hurts but has a rehabilitative value to change our behaviour to train us in righteousness. This means that though we are not charged with sin (a legal response) we are not let loose to do sin whenever but will be painfully punished so as to learn to quit sinning.

Such instruction is not for those who need to be converted to Christ, but to those already reborn as HIS sons: Hebrews 12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 for whom the LORD loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives.�

Look at these words: chastening, rebuked, scourges... A scourge is a whip used as an instrument of punishment.

To scourge: verb
1.
historical
to whip (someone) as a punishment.
synonyms: flog, whip, beat, horsewhip, lash, flagellate, strap, birch, cane, thrash, belt, leather;
2.
cause great suffering to.
"political methods used to scourge and oppress workers"
synonyms: afflict, plague, torment, torture, curse, oppress, burden, bedevil, beset

This is what awaits the Christian who thinks he can sin freely because he will not be charged with sin.

And just in case you want to fly like a Puritan and claim your mucho success is from GOD, read this: Hebrews 12:8 If you are not disciplined--and everyone undergoes discipline--then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all.

So these sons of GOD cannot be rebuked or scoured for GOOD deeds eh, but only evil deeds, then we see that having free will does not save us from making bad decisions or suffering.

Peace, Ted

[Haz]

[Replying to post 18 by ttruscott]

Hi Ted,

I agree that Christians should not think that grace is a licence to live selfishly.
Consider King David, as an example. He committed adultery and murder. God put away his sin, but he suffered consequences for it.

You seem to describe any wrong that a Christian does as "sin". Considering the definitions of sin from scripture I don't see how this applies.
For example sin is transgression of the law (1John 3:4) and unrighteousness (1John 5:17). Are you suggesting that Christians are still under the law and thus unrighteous in spite of being saved by grace?

I prefer to just describe any wrong Christians do as "wrong" rather than as "sin". That way it avoids confusion with scriptures about sin (and we all know that the soul that sins dies as the wages of sin is death).

You also said that God's discipline is designed to make us change our behavior to train us in righteousness. Again I don't see how this applies.

For Christians it's our faith that is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. To say that we need discipline to attain the righteousness we already had when we believed on Jesus seems to suggest we were not considered righteous to start with.

In addition, if Christians had to be disciplined to train us in righteousness then none of us would ever achieve this as none of us ever are perfect in obedience to the law of righteousness regardless of how hard we try or are disciplined.

I understand this discipline spoken of in Heb 12 as the testing of our faith.
Note Heb 12:7
"Endure hardship as discipline"

Note also James 1:2-4
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

The hardship/trials that Christians face is God's discipline that is meant to grow our faith. And remember our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

Heb 12:11
Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it

James 1:2
have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing

The peaceable fruit of righteousness is what Christians have when we believe on Jesus. Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
When we believe on Jesus we are perfected (Heb 10:14) and complete (Col 2:10).

Both Heb 12 and James 1 refer to what we have when we continue (thanks to God's discipline) to believe on Jesus.

Christians are running a race (Heb 12:1), we're fighting the good fight of faith (1Tim 6:12), to believe on Jesus. And this is what I understand God's discipline is all about.[/i]

[bluethread]

Hi bluethread,
God gives us specific definitions of sin. We should use them and then we'll understand scripture.

Welcome, since you are new here, as a matter of prudent practice, let me point out that there are few forums on this site where the Scriptures are considered authoritative. Those who oppose the Scriptures will generally not point this out upfront, as I am doing now, but will withhold that information until it is most advantageous to use it against you. Therefore, it is best to presume the most general of definitions unless the person you are responding to has made clear either through acceptance of an OP definition, implication or direct statement, the definition they are using. Just a word to the wise.

That said, yes, in the context of the Scriptures, the concept of sin is directly related to HaTorah. So, let's look at your examples.

For example:
1: Sin is transgression of the law, 1John 3:4.
Christians cannot be charged with this sin as we're not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).

This doctrine is, in my view, a misrepresentation of what Paul is saying. There are several passages here and we can look at each of them. For now, I will say that quite often when Paul speaks of not being "under the law" he is speaking of final judgment or rabbinic interpretation. He is not saying that violations of HaTorah are not sins.

2: unrighteousness is sin, 1John 5:17.
Christians cannot be charged with this sin as our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

As I pointed out above, this is talking about eternal judgment, not social justice. Murder is still a sin, regardless of who does it. It is just that how it is handled at the final judgment and in an earthly court of law may be different.

3: Unbelief in Jesus is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9.
Christians believe on Jesus.

No, you have misstated that verse. It says that Ruach HaChedosh(Holy Spirit) will fault the world regarding sin, because they did not accept how Yeshua defined it, by direct statement and by contrast. If one believes on Yeshua, one accepts how He defines sin.

These sins are all related.
To be under the law is to reject Christ because such seek to establish their own righteousness by works. To be under the law such will be found guilty of ALL the law (Rom 3:19, James 2:10) and thus condemned as unrighteous.

So if we use God's definitions of sin we will understand why scripture says Christians cannot sin. Whilst Christians are not perfect in physical behavior, our position in Christ is such that we cannot be charged with sin.

The problem here is that you are playing fast and loose with the word sin. You present a specific definition of not keeping "the law', then you seem to say that there is only one sin, to "reject Christ", which includes keeping "the law", then you say that a Christian can not sin. So, not keeping "the law' is sin, keeping "the law" is sin, to "reject Christ' is sin, and Christians do none of these things. You probably have a series of arguments that lead you to this understanding, or maybe it is just a general state of mind that allows this to work for you. However, if you wish to make this understandable to others, you are probably going to need to backup and take this one point at a time.