Abortion Solution Possibilities

[Hatuey]

The purpose of this thread is NOT to discuss whether abortion is right or wrong or whether women should have the ability to abort at what stage of pregnancy or whatever. (Of course, the thread might BECOME about one or more of those topics, since thread-hijacking is completely encouraged, here, but it's not the intended focus). The purpose of this thread, hopefully, is to discuss more democratic methods of solving the issue with a more popular outcome that in many cases preserves life and/or uses it instead of destroying it.


Assumed:

Most people find abortion to be unpleasant in its methods and outcome in that evolution demands that we hold life in higher regard than nonlife. Certainly we'd prefer to prevent unwanted life from occurring than to destroy it once it has occurred. (I intend this "universally." In other words, generally speaking, we would rather prevent a virus from making us sick than to catch the virus and allows its life to flourish inside us and THEN kill it with medicine). Use whatever example you wish: tumors, parasites, etc..

Solutions:

There has to be other possible ways to deal with the concern. I'm hoping this thread will generate at least three or four. One "fair" way might be to allow society to determine the best way to deal with the fetus as the majority feels is appropriate. (Hopefully, many of them constructive ways that do not destroy the life, if it can be called that at the particular stage in question). So, a person wanting to be rid of a fetus would simply turn it over to the state. The state then uses that fetus in the way it has been democratically decided that a fetus at that stage and with that viability should be utilized. That way it's the responsibility of the whole society and nobody needs to point fingers at anybody else. (It'd be interesting to allow the "donors" of the fetuses to perhaps have an extra vote on what happens to ALL fetuses, but maybe that idea muddies the water a bit too much...)

I'm sure there's much better ideas out there (what this thread is for), and my idea could certainly be made much better by sensible suggestions, but it would make sense to "spread the blame/guilt" on such a heavy issue as this one.

Very interested in any other ideas or augmentations to the one I've offered that would improve upon it. (Please remember this thread is not about whether abortion is right or wrong or any of the silly semantics that surround the "abortion debate.")

[Goat]

[Replying to post 8 by Hatuey]
Your OP is confusing, I'm just trying to clarify.

[Replying to post 9 by Hatuey]

It would help if the education system was overhauled too. For example, my sex education classes where nothing but confusing. The school wasn't clear about anything and my conservative, religious parents tried to explain it in a way that wouldn't "expose" me. I wasn't even taught about contraceptives or condoms at all, I was probably 18 or 19 before I learned what those were.

And the reason the school was not clear was because of conservative religious parents objecting to it being taught in school.

One of my friend's sisters got her education about contraception from one of their neighbors, who explained many things that her parents could not.

When I took in a young lady that got kicked out of her mother's house at age 18, it fell to me to make sure she got a lot of that information, because it was lacking from her mother. I took her to the local planned parenthood to get medical checkups, and had them explain about how the side effects of the various options, because things have advanced a lot since my early adult hood. I will tell you, taking care of teen girls is a great way to have your hair turn grey. I must have done something right, since she finished high school, and is almost through with college, and no kids yet.

[Peter]

The purpose of this thread, hopefully, is to discuss more democratic methods of solving the issue with a more popular outcome that in many cases preserves life and/or uses it instead of destroying it.

You want to discuss what to do with unwanted kids besides killing them?

Adoption is an option. Orphanage is an option. Can you still sell kids to a circus?

[Hatuey]

You want to discuss what to do with unwanted kids besides killing them?

No. I didn't know that killing kids was an option. My opening post explained what I had hoped to discuss.

Adoption is an option. Orphanage is an option. Can you still sell kids to a circus?

Yes, those are options (except for the circus one). What do you think about the idea of society shouldering the burden of choice instead of individual mothers? What do you think about other possible options?

[Peter]

You want to discuss what to do with unwanted kids besides killing them?

No. I didn't know that killing kids was an option. My opening post explained what I had hoped to discuss.

Isn't abortion killing kids? Let's see, one abortion, one less kid. Yep it sure seems like killing kids to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against killing kids under the right circumstances. Heaven knows there's no shortage of them. 200,000 more every day the last time I checked. If nobody is willing to care for them or love them it seems like death is a reasonable alternative.

Adoption is an option. Orphanage is an option. Can you still sell kids to a circus?

Yes, those are options (except for the circus one). What do you think about the idea of society shouldering the burden of choice instead of individual mothers? What do you think about other possible options?

Not sure what you mean by society deciding. Do you mean society will decide if the kid lives or dies? I think that's a decision for the parents alone.

[Goat]

You want to discuss what to do with unwanted kids besides killing them?

No. I didn't know that killing kids was an option. My opening post explained what I had hoped to discuss.

Isn't abortion killing kids? Let's see, one abortion, one less kid. Yep it sure seems like killing kids to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against killing kids under the right circumstances. Heaven knows there's no shortage of them. 200,000 more every day the last time I checked. If nobody is willing to care for them or love them it seems like death is a reasonable alternative.

Adoption is an option. Orphanage is an option. Can you still sell kids to a circus?

Yes, those are options (except for the circus one). What do you think about the idea of society shouldering the burden of choice instead of individual mothers? What do you think about other possible options?

Not sure what you mean by society deciding. Do you mean society will decide if the kid lives or dies? I think that's a decision for the parents alone.

That sort of is cirular there.. insisting that an abortion is 'one less kid'. Is it?? Where is that kid? A fetus is not yet a kid.

[Peter]

That sort of is cirular there.. insisting that an abortion is 'one less kid'. Is it?? Where is that kid? A fetus is not yet a kid.

If you can tell me definitively when a fetus becomes a child I'll entertain the notion that abortion isn't killing a child. Don't get me wrong, I think killing the child is better than bringing them into a world where nobody wants them but please, let's call a spade a spade. Let's at least be honest with ourselves on this issue.

[UNBeliever905]

2 solutions to lower abortion numbers, Proper Sexual Education and Availability of Contraception.

As a 3rd i'd like to reccomend the complete dissolution of the catholic church and muslim theocracies, but the first two are a start i could be happy with

[Goat]

That sort of is cirular there.. insisting that an abortion is 'one less kid'. Is it?? Where is that kid? A fetus is not yet a kid.

If you can tell me definitively when a fetus becomes a child I'll entertain the notion that abortion isn't killing a child. Don't get me wrong, I think killing the child is better than bringing them into a world where nobody wants them but please, let's call a spade a spade. Let's at least be honest with ourselves on this issue.

Legally, at birth. When the first breath is taken.

Until then, it is potentially a child. Viability is the second choice.. if it can live outside the womb.

[Peter]

That sort of is cirular there.. insisting that an abortion is 'one less kid'. Is it?? Where is that kid? A fetus is not yet a kid.

If you can tell me definitively when a fetus becomes a child I'll entertain the notion that abortion isn't killing a child. Don't get me wrong, I think killing the child is better than bringing them into a world where nobody wants them but please, let's call a spade a spade. Let's at least be honest with ourselves on this issue.

Legally, at birth. When the first breath is taken.

Until then, it is potentially a child. Viability is the second choice.. if it can live outside the womb.

So then it's not a child one moment until it takes a breath and becomes a child the next moment or, even more problematically, it's not a child until it can survive on its own? If that's the case, using the second definition, I have a 25 year old at home that isn't a child yet! Could I argue legally that killing him was nothing more than removing an unwanted lump of flesh from my life?

No, I don't think we can legally define our way out of the problem that killing a fetus is, de facto, killing a child.

I don't want to hijack this thread with a debate about what abortion is. We can probably all agree that it should be a last resort. I'm still trying to figure out what the OP is asking.

[Goat]

That sort of is cirular there.. insisting that an abortion is 'one less kid'. Is it?? Where is that kid? A fetus is not yet a kid.

If you can tell me definitively when a fetus becomes a child I'll entertain the notion that abortion isn't killing a child. Don't get me wrong, I think killing the child is better than bringing them into a world where nobody wants them but please, let's call a spade a spade. Let's at least be honest with ourselves on this issue.

Legally, at birth. When the first breath is taken.

Until then, it is potentially a child. Viability is the second choice.. if it can live outside the womb.

So then it's not a child one moment until it takes a breath and becomes a child the next moment or, even more problematically, it's not a child until it can survive on its own? If that's the case, using the second definition, I have a 25 year old at home that isn't a child yet! Could I argue legally that killing him was nothing more than removing an unwanted lump of flesh from my life?

No, I don't think we can legally define our way out of the problem that killing a fetus is, de facto, killing a child.

I don't want to hijack this thread with a debate about what abortion is. We can probably all agree that it should be a last resort. I'm still trying to figure out what the OP is asking.

Yep. That's right. The ability to breath, all by your lonesome, makes a different.
It's the difference between a fetus, and an infant.

Of course, viability means that it might be able to breath on it's own... and I will accept making an error on that side. When a fetus is viable is slightly a grey area.