Need a comeback, please

[Lainey]

I have a close friend who's a True Christian(TM). She's the reason I ended up here. I started out looking for a comeback to something she said to me, and I wound up learning a ton of stuff about religion, evolution, philosophy, history, etc. In fact, I've been lurking on this site for awhile now, and I just decided to actually join and start posting today. I would have to say that in the last few months, when I started my search, my knowledge on these subjects has grown by leaps and bounds. I feel like it's outpaced her understanding of these subjects. Anyway, here's what she said to me:

"I sometimes feel angry at God for not letting my friends into Heaven, like you and (my boyfriend) and (a guy she "loves" but "can't" date because he's not a Christian)."

She is my friend, so I don't want to be mean to her, but that really ticked me off! What would you guys say to that?

Also, I haven't been talking to my Christian friends too much about my research, and she's been away at school for much of it. So, she doesn't know. She talks to me about religious matters as though I couldn't possibly know anything about such things, heathen that I am. And sometimes she preaches at me. Now I feel like it will be harder to keep my feelings to myself when she treats me as though I don't know anything about the Bible, Christianity, religion, etc. Especially know that I can identify things she said before that display a lack of understanding on her part (for example, she's used the circular argument on me: "How do you know the Bible's true? Because it says it is!" and also told me that God didn't create evil, and all the bible's are the same, and she's used the "Lord, Liar, or Lunatic" argument, and she's said that the Bible translators were "very careful" to keep the Bible translations true to the original, etc.)

Anyway, sorry this is so long. But after all, it was all of this that was the catalyst for my search for the truth (which I despair of ever finding until I'm dead...if then).

So, your thoughts, please?

[HannaH]

Hmmm...I have a little update.

I came across "Larry King Live" a few weeks ago when he was interviewing three psychics (one was Sylvia Browne, one was a pompous little twit who appeared to have been coddled too much as a child by his mommy-anyway I've never heard of him before, and one was some woman who would ask a silly question of the skeptics and then look all smug when she thought she'd made a point-I've never heard of her before either), and two skeptics-one was a Rabbi, and one was Dr. (I think?) Brian Farha (if memory serves).

So anyway, we were at my boyfriend's house at the time (where she stays whenever she comes into town--he offered to let her stay once and now she lands there all the time whenever she comes back from somewhere--which I find odd for someone who prattles on about behaving properly and dressing modestly, and who reads books by Christian men about how men tend to like what they see all the time (so, he sees her all the time... ), and how she respects her brother because "he never looks at a woman below the neck out of respect for her" (Uh-huh. )...also she told my boyfriend's nephew, who likes her, that she didn't want to be his roommate because it wouldn't look good for a guy and a girl to live together...still trying to figure that one out...but I digress in a babbling sort of way...can you tell this is an issue for me right now?)

Anyway, we were watching the show, and I, of course, was on the side of the skeptics, and I was commenting on how they're the ones who are actually doing good work and trying to help people, yet no one who called in to the show had a good word for them. And of course, anytime one of the psychics started making silly claims that are obviously not true, I commented on how what they were saying was complete crap, and they've never proven a thing.

So she says, "Well, there ARE people who can do that, but I don't think it's a good thing."

So I says, "Well, James Randi has been offering a million dollars to anyone who can prove that they have psychic abilities, and he's been doing it for a long time. So far, no one has proven it, which would seem to indicate that there AREN'T people who can do that!"

She just sort of shrugged...

ok, at your first post i actually felt sympathy for you because you actually seemed to need help or at least someone to talk to. this last post however you lost any sympathy and respect. the impression i got is that you want someone to give you a slap on the back and tell you that you did the right thing. i don't even know what kind of a point you were trying to make. i don't even understand what this has to do with your original post.

i thought you seemed a little narrow minded, not just at the people who were claiming to be psychic, whether they were psychic or not is not the point, but also at calling names and picking fights. where does calling someone a "pompous little twit" get you? except maybe into another fight, which you must love getting into because you seem to do your best to pick a fight with that woman who stays over at your boyfriend's place(by the way if that was my boyfriend it would not be happening PERIOD but that's not even important).

saying "I commented on how what they were saying was complete crap" is an ignorant way to argue (saying something is "crap" is not even an argument, as it proves nothing except that you don't know what else to say on the matter)

do some research on the matter, point out real evidence, not just "it's crap." and i'll have you know there are documented cases of people "knowing" things that they couldn't actually know without psychic abilities. just because there's no god doesn't mean there aren't things that we can't explain yet.

don't get me wrong, i think that woman you were talking about sounds thoroughly obnoxious but i think you could have handled it better.

[Lainey]

Okay, you're right. Name-calling isn't the way to go, and I probably could have handled it better.

My point was simply the constant insistance on her views being true no matter what the situation. Last time, it was that everybody who disagrees with her are going to Hell. This time, it was that all psychic abilities are demonic in nature.

I would be interested in the cases you mentioned where psychic ability has been shown to be true. However, in this case, these three "psychics" (I found out the other two's names--James Van Praagh and Char Margolis) are obvious con artists. Sylvia Browne claims to speak for God, and "diagnoses" illnesses. That could be dangerous. I don't know much about the other two, but their performances on the show didn't really convince me too much.

As for saying that it was "crap," that's not what I said to her--it's just how I explained it here. I did say why their arguments weren't very good. They weren't--check it out: http://www.shmuley.com/articles.php?id=236

[Lotan]

What would you guys say to that?

Hi Lainey,
I was in a similar situation so I'll throw my two cents in. It may give you some hope at least.
My wife was a True ChristianTM when I first met her. We got along great but she didn't think that we could ever be together because we would be "unequally yoked". I knew that I had to try to change her mind somehow. I had a few things going for me; she was in love with me, she had experienced first hand the hypocrisy of fellow True ChristiansTM, and a lot of her "friends" weren't associating with her anymore. Peer pressure is a big motivator among these people it seems.
My strategy was to ask hard questions about the bible. Knowing the likely apologetic responses helped too. Otherwise she thought that she had real answers. Some questions didn't bother her at all, but some did. Eventually she was researching her own questions and that's all it took for some kind of objectivity to grow. I couldn't change her but she could change herself.
Now she still has some kind of faith but she is able to think for herself , which is all that I really wanted anyway. It would probably have hurt her to lose her faith completely and she still thinks that "every thing happens for a reason" but she no longer lets other people's views of True ChristianityTM dictate her behavior, and she's much happier about it.
Good luck with your friend, and please remember to be a good example of atheism.

[HannaH]

I would be interested in the cases you mentioned where psychic ability has been shown to be true.

With something as ambiguous as psychic abilities there are no cases that are official labeled as "true" - you either believe them or you don't. However, as I'm not one to cop out, here's some research that I think cannot be ignored or simply written off just because they do not fit into the accepted scientific norm. Remote Viewing, perhaps you've head of it, is not simply being "psychic" but is defined by the remote viewing protocol, a set of situational rules that must be in place while somebody is doing psychic work, in order to call it RV. Remote Viewing can also include out of body experiences.


Here's a link that should clear up any of your questions on RV: http://www.elfis.net/austin/remoteviewi ... boutrv.htm

Here is an abridged version of Remote Viewing history: http://www.remoteviewinghistory.com/

This is a very good link and if you read nothing else, give this one a try: http://www.intuitive-connections.net/20 ... dreach.htm

To play my own devil's advocate for a moment, here is a link to the Skepdic's Dictionary, please read what they have to say on remote viewing as well just to get a well rounded opinion http://skepdic.com/remotevw.html

You seem intelligent. Upon reflection I regret many of my choices of words in my last post.

In regards to the link you posted, I read it and I have to say most of what the psychics said was a lot (and I mean a lot) of double talk. They really didn't say much of anything and when they did say something they repeated it in various ways. A very dissatisfying interview to say the least.

[Cathar1950]

This thread is like reading my life story from every angle.
I think I know about the psychics your talking about Lainey. Sylvia Browne is on Montel all the time and she makes big bucks.
There are two others that talk to the dead John Edwards and this other twit(sorry HannaH but they do remind me of twits). I have had weird things happen in my life and I am still skeptical. Yet there is the "spooky actions at a distance" plus maybe more we do not understand. Maybe the universe is interrelated and connected in ways we have yet to discover. I can see why peer pressure plays a large role for maintaining group identity. Then again when Ezra made all the Jews divorce and leave their non-Jewish families, I don't find that was much of a family values example and I think it was rather bigoted.
Lotan wrote:

Good luck with your friend, and please remember to be a good example of atheism.

I would second that and just be the best human you can be.
Did you ever see the episode of Seinfeld where Elaine's boyfriend says she is going to hell and they go to a minister? It was funny.

[Lainey]

Lotan wrote:

My strategy was to ask hard questions about the bible. Knowing the likely apologetic responses helped too. Otherwise she thought that she had real answers. Some questions didn't bother her at all, but some did. Eventually she was researching her own questions and that's all it took for some kind of objectivity to grow. I couldn't change her but she could change herself.
Now she still has some kind of faith but she is able to think for herself , which is all that I really wanted anyway.

Thank you, Lotan. I have asked her hard questions about the bible, but it was before I was familiar with apologetic responses. It would leave me speechless--I couldn't believe she thought it was a good answer (she's a smart girl), and I didn't know what to say. I just don't want to be speechless about these things anymore. I want to get her to think a little bit more objectively about the things she's been told. There are some things that she comes out with that make me worry about her--she seems to lose touch with reality sometimes. For example, she wanted to call this guy, but she thought maybe she shouldn't (he was kind of a jerk). Because she wanted to, the thought of not calling him made her feel bad, and she attributed this bad feeling to a demonic influence. More recently, she was going to go apply for a job doing housecleaning, just until she found something better. But she told me that on the way there, she "just got this feeling that I shouldn't..." From previous experience with her, that probably means that she thought God was telling her not to. I tend to think that she just really didn't want to do housecleaning.

Good luck with your friend, and please remember to be a good example of atheism.

Thanks again, Lotan. I think I will just try to ask her questions that make her think when she talks about religion. I am trying harder these days to be a better/nicer person(I used to be much nicer, but it got me into a lot of trouble! ), but there are days when it doesn't work...by the way, I'm agnostic...just call me the eternal optimist...


HannaH wrote:

With something as ambiguous as psychic abilities there are no cases that are official labeled as "true" - you either believe them or you don't. However, as I'm not one to cop out, here's some research that I think cannot be ignored or simply written off just because they do not fit into the accepted scientific norm.

I agree that there are many things that we don't yet know. I read some of the links you posted, but I'll have to go back and read some of the others when I have a bit more concentration (not quite enough sleep!). However, I remain skeptical of psychic abilities. Of course it's possible that someday psychic researches will find evidence that will convince the most hardened skeptic, but I think we've still got a long way to go. It would be exciting, I must admit. You know, I wasn't always this skeptical. I have had a psychic reading myself (when I was 17), and I've read a few of Sylvia Browne's books.

HannaH wrote:

You seem intelligent. Upon reflection I regret many of my choices of words in my last post.

Thank you, HannaH, you seem intelligent as well. I am so glad you said that (the second sentence)--I felt really bad, because I must have come off like a jerk, and I really didn't mean to. I admit, I am somewhat angry at my friend right now for the "other" situation. ('Bout that--I'm not afraid there's anything going on, I just don't think it's appropriate--especially for someone who talks about proper behavior so much). It may have influenced my writing that day...

Also, like I said, I don't know much about the other two psychics (although on the show, I really didn't like them...you can't get the full effect of their posturing through the transcripts), but I do know a bit about Sylvia Browne, and her many failed predictions. This woman is dangerous:

http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/browne.html
http://www.skepticreport.com/psychics/dodgeball.htm
http://www.ufowatchdog.com/sylviabrowne.html
http://www.time.com/time/columnist/jaro ... 16,00.html
http://www.skepticreport.com/psychics/sylviabrowne.htm
http://www.randi.org/jr/030504newsweek.html#10
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/aspie/trueor ... rowne.html
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/sylvia.htm

I posted a few articles by Dr. Bryan Farha, the skeptic who was on the Larry King show. I was able to converse with him through email over a few days, and I found him to be very intelligent and kind-hearted. He has gotten a bad rap from people for exposing Ms. Browne's fraudulent ways, and yet he keeps doing it, to try to protect people. On the show, she accused him of having a "miserable life." So lest anyone else get that idea, here's a little info on him to clear that misconception up: He's a professor at the University of Oklahoma, and a licensed counsellor who has done a lot of (real) grief counselling . During the Oklahoma City bombing tragedy, he was there and available to help people--doing something concrete, something real. What was Sylvia doing for these people?


HannaH wrote:

In regards to the link you posted, I read it and I have to say most of what the psychics said was a lot (and I mean a lot) of double talk. They really didn't say much of anything and when they did say something they repeated it in various ways. A very dissatisfying interview to say the least.

Yes, it was very dissatisfying, lots of double talk, and they kept interrupting everyone--each other, the skeptics, Larry King...you name it. They gave the impression that they had to talk over everyone in case someone said something that they couldn't double talk their way out of.

Cathar1950 wrote:

This thread is like reading my life story from every angle.
I think I know about the psychics your talking about Lainey. Sylvia Browne is on Montel all the time and she makes big bucks.
There are two others that talk to the dead John Edwards and this other twit(sorry HannaH but they do remind me of twits).

Cathar, you're the best! I was hoping you'd show up here. Yep, that's our Sylvia. Now I don't feel quite as bad for my outburst on these guys... But in future I shall refrain from name-calling to the best of my ability...

Cathar1950 wrote:

I have had weird things happen in my life and I am still skeptical. Yet there is the "spooky actions at a distance" plus maybe more we do not understand. Maybe the universe is interrelated and connected in ways we have yet to discover.

That's how it is with me, too. I have lots of things I can't explain, but I'm still skeptical, so I take it all with a grain of salt. I hope we will learn much more in the years to come.

Cathar1950 wrote:

I can see why peer pressure plays a large role for maintaining group identity. Then again when Ezra made all the Jews divorce and leave their non-Jewish families, I don't find that was much of a family values example and I think it was rather bigoted.

I'm not familiar with this story...I'm afraid you lost me here...

Cathar1950 wrote:

Lotan wrote:
Good luck with your friend, and please remember to be a good example of atheism.

I would second that and just be the best human you can be.
Did you ever see the episode of Seinfeld where Elaine's boyfriend says she is going to hell and they go to a minister? It was funny.

Good advice. No, I don't remember that episode, but it sounds funny! I'll have to check out the Seinfeld reruns now and then...maybe I'll come across it someday.

[Cathar1950]

Good to hear from you again Lainey. Been a long time.
I am sorry I was going off topic with the Ezra thing.

INTRODUCTION TO EZRA-NEHEMIAH
These books are our most important source of evidence for the history of the early post-exilic period, from 538 to c. 430 B.C.E. They bear the names of the two best-known leaders of the Jewish community of those years, Ezra the priest and Nehemiah the governor, both of them active in the middle of the fifth century, though their activity in Jerusalem perhaps never overlapped.

whole sequence of 1 Chronicles through Nehemiah was once a single work by one author. Even if the differences between 1 and 2 Chronicles on the one hand and Ezra-Nehemiah on the other point to different authorship, it seems that Ezra-Nehemiah was composed as a sequel to 1 and 2 Chronicles and that the authors of both works were Jerusalem clergy of the fourth century.

http://www.shef.ac.uk/bibs/DJACcurrres/EzraNeh.html

After the return from Babylonian exile, The Persians needed laws to govern their subjects. Much of the OT was written and reworked for that purpose. What is interesting is they forbid Jews to marry non-Jews and any one with a foreign wife and family had to dump them. It is kind of what it would be like if the religious right would was in charge. Come to think of it it is really not that off topic.

The problem of mixed marriages 9:1-10:44

I just wonder how people felt having to give up their loved ones.

It is against the rules to call each other names in this forum but I don't know if it is against the rules to call the twits on tv twits.
If there are any one with psychic abilities in this forum I just want you to know I don't think your twits.

Ms. Browne's fraudulent ways

I think you hit the nail on the head.
Montel screwing one life up at a time.
I get my news from the "Daily Show" after I watch FOX news, CNN and MSN news.
Try to stay friends with your friend she probably needs you.
Good to hear from you and jump in a little more.

[Lainey]

Cathar1950 wrote:

It is against the rules to call each other names in this forum but I don't know if it is against the rules to call the twits on tv twits.
If there are any one with psychic abilities in this forum I just want you to know I don't think your twits.

Ms. Browne's fraudulent ways

I think you hit the nail on the head.
Montel screwing one life up at a time.
I get my news from the "Daily Show" after I watch FOX news, CNN and MSN news.
Try to stay friends with your friend she probably needs you.
Good to hear from you and jump in a little more.

Aw, what can I say, I'm mean. I still think James Van Praagh is a twit. (Sorry, HannaH.)

I would have stayed friends with her(although when I think about it real hard, I'm really not sure why), but she seems to have quit speaking to me. After much trouble caused by the "situation" I mentioned before, my boyfriend told her to leave. He was very nice about it, considering all the problems she was causing. She agreed, but--are you ready for this--SHE DIDN'T LEAVE! She agreed at the time, and then she acted like it never happened. I know that he REALLY doesn't like confrontation, and it was very hard for him to confront her like that in the first place. He was avoiding his own house because he was so uncomfortable that she was still there after he asked her to leave. *sigh...* So I told her that. She hasn't spoken to either of us since.

You know, I find my life is much more peaceful these days.

Back in the day before I really started reading about all this stuff, I took her beliefs with a grain of salt, but I wasn't sure about certain things. And some things terrified me. Once we had a discussion about demons:

(Me: "I went to school with a girl who was a Jehovah's Witness who told me she was chased by demons--ha ha! Can you believe it?!"

Her: "Well, actually, there are such things as demons...")

Can't say I absolutely believed it, but I slept with a nightlight on for 6 months after that... I don't need a nightlight anymore.

Nobody rolls their eyes and looks at me for backup when someone on TV mentions evolution or the billions of years of the Earth's age.

Nobody tells me that they have to keep busy so that they don't think, because they think thinking means there's something wrong with them. (Makes me wonder if that's when the doubts start creeping in...)

Nobody jumps down my throat at the merest suggestion that I don't share their religious beliefs.

Nobody tells me that they're sad because I'm going to Hell.

I'm not so sure this "not talking" is a bad thing...

[Vianne]

Lainey, I can understand your frustration. To be close friends with someone who is actively trying to convert you can be a challenge. I should know -- I was once just like your friend! Forgive me if I re-address something someone else has mentioned, I haven’t read through all of the replies yet (short on time!).

"I sometimes feel angry at God for not letting my friends into Heaven, like you and (my boyfriend) and (a guy she "loves" but "can't" date because he's not a Christian)." She is my friend, so I don't want to be mean to her, but that really ticked me off! What would you guys say to that?

That is a tough one, and doesn’t really have a clear-cut answer. Why does she believe you are going to hell? Are you an active member of a different belief system, or simply not as “saved” as she would like? I would probably say, in a non-confrontational, conversational tone, “Well, (insert her name here), what would you like me to say when you tell me that? Since I (am not Christian/don’t believe in hell/don’t believe I’m going to hell because I know where I’m at with God) I’m probably not the best person to discuss that with. To me it’s kind of offensive.”

Also, I haven't been talking to my Christian friends too much about my research, and she's been away at school for much of it. So, she doesn't know. She talks to me about religious matters as though I couldn't possibly know anything about such things, heathen that I am. And sometimes she preaches at me. Now I feel like it will be harder to keep my feelings to myself when she treats me as though I don't know anything about the Bible, Christianity, religion, etc.

The best way would be to simply jump into a conversation with her. When she starts talking about the writers of the Bible, leap in indirectly – i.e. “Yes, I can only imagine what it was like for the Council of Nicea to have to decide what to put in the Bible, what with all those texts circulating at that time!” You haven’t directly contradicted her, but you have opened the door for a more in-depth conversation. You said you have increased your knowledge by leaps and bounds since coming here: she simply may not be expecting the new-and-improved Lainey.

Especially know that I can identify things she said before that display a lack of understanding on her part (for example, she's used the circular argument on me: "How do you know the Bible's true? Because it says it is!"

Circular arguments are irritating, but if approached with polite logic, they can usually be pointed out. Explain that other (fictional) books often claim to be true, and yet turn out not to be. Because a single source is not always the most objective, ask her what other sources there are that prove the Bible is true.

and also told me that God didn't create evil, and all the bible's are the same, and she's used the "Lord, Liar, or Lunatic" argument, and she's said that the Bible translators were "very careful" to keep the Bible translations true to the original, etc.)

The “God didn’t create evil” argument is classic. As I’m sure others have pointed out, he did make it a possibility by creating free will. To present a choice to someone and threaten them with torture if they do not make the appropriate choice is not free will at all, but in fact coercion. It’s the equivalent of holding a gun to someone’s head and saying they must marry you, but *only* of their own free will, even though you *will* have to shoot them if they choose not to return your affection (insert apologetic look here).

Bibles are not all the same. Check out the Catholic Bible, for one thing. They have a few extra books thrown in there. If your friend doesn’t know that, she’s not doing too well!

The “Lord, Liar, or Lunatic” argument, if I remember correctly, deals with Jesus’ claim to be God, right? Where does he claim to be God? He claims to be one *with* God, but then, he also says we are all gods. Check out www.skepticsannotatedbible.com for some great contradictions.

Hope that helps!

[Lainey]

Vianne,

Thank you for your response. I've actually talked to her a little bit since I wrote that last post. Not much beyond polite conversation, though.

Why does she believe you are going to hell? Are you an active member of a different belief system, or simply not as “saved” as she would like?

I guess I'm not as "saved" as she would like. She actually doesn't know what I believe. She's never asked. I like your response, though. If it ever comes up, I'll have to remember it.

When she starts talking about the writers of the Bible, leap in indirectly – i.e. “Yes, I can only imagine what it was like for the Council of Nicea to have to decide what to put in the Bible, what with all those texts circulating at that time!”

I don't know for sure, but I suspect she wouldn't know what I was talking about. Basically, whatever her Dad tells her, she thinks is true. He may have told her about the Council of Nicea--I'm not sure.

The “God didn’t create evil” argument is classic. As I’m sure others have pointed out, he did make it a possibility by creating free will. To present a choice to someone and threaten them with torture if they do not make the appropriate choice is not free will at all, but in fact coercion. It’s the equivalent of holding a gun to someone’s head and saying they must marry you, but *only* of their own free will, even though you *will* have to shoot them if they choose not to return your affection (insert apologetic look here).

I agree that it's not truly free will. However, there is a part in the Bible where God says he creates good AND evil:

Isaiah 45:6-7
"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

In my translation("The Message"), however, it doesn't quite say the same thing. It says:

"I form light and create darkness, I make harmonies and create discords. I, God, do all these things."

Bibles are not all the same. Check out the Catholic Bible, for one thing. They have a few extra books thrown in there. If your friend doesn’t know that, she’s not doing too well!

She didn't know that. I told her. She didn't believe me. She said she was going to "check" (i.e.--ask her Dad), but I don't know if she ever did.

But then again, Catholics aren't "True Christians(TM)."

The “Lord, Liar, or Lunatic” argument, if I remember correctly, deals with Jesus’ claim to be God, right?

All I know (now) is, there are more than the three options she seems to think there are.