Death/Aging

[unicorn]

How do we scientifically explain the problem of aging/death without the sin explanation? Science still has no true answer for their causes--free radicals, dna breakdown, failure of cells to regenerate nothing but theories.

[McCulloch]

McCulloch:

Cool points, but my question was how can science justify death/aging--death by degeneration. None of your points can solve the question of why we age/die.

Your references say it all in one word--Theory. No real answers. Mystery. Unexplainable.

Are you asking if science can come up with a purpose for our lives and our deaths? Science never justifies. Death has no spiritual supernatural reason. It just is.
My individual life is important to me. It will come to an end. It is not necessarily meaningless. I have to create my own meaning for my life, without any illusions about my own importance in the grand scheme of things or any concern for reward or punishment after death. The main thing is to try to be happy now, while we are alive, and to make other people happy because we don't get another chance. The stark truth is that life isn't "for" anything, it just is; there is no underlying purpose to it all. But human beings have the great privilege of intelligence, imagination, creativity - we can give our own lives a sense of direction and purpose.

[unicorn]

Nyril:

I was thinking more along the lines of the ideal gas law...

Why would you find the need to think about that...on this thread?

As for biological studies...

We are talking about aging/death as a result of...maybe you missed that.

[unicorn]

McCulloch:

Are you asking if science can come up with a purpose for our lives and our deaths?

Do you think such a purpose could exist, that even science could find it? Actually, I just find it curious that scientists can't find an answer to aging/death.

Death...it just is...

Now that's not very scientific...which is exactly what leads so many to spiritual matters.

There is no underlying purpose to it at all [life]...but human beings have the great privilege of intelligence, imagination, creativity--we can give our own lives a sense of direction and purpose.

So, you admit that any purpose we create ourselves is a mere fabrication and a fairy tale?

[McCulloch]

So, you admit that any purpose we create ourselves is a mere fabrication and a fairy tale?

In as much as the happiness we create for ourselves and the morals we create for ourselves are a mere fabrication. Even the gods we create for ourselves.

[Cathar1950]

juliod wrote:

First, the Happy Humanist provided the correct and conclusive answer. You advance the "sin explanation" for death. The presumes you feel that mushrooms had a "fall from grace" just as Adam, and that that explains why mushrooms age and die.

I wanted to use the flies, bugs and bacteria. But you had to use mushrooms.
So after you took my thunder I would like to say these little decaying flesh eating little creatures have been around before any Adams or Eves.

[unicorn]

Cathar1950:

They sure were! And the bible tells us that too!

[The Happy Humanist]

I wanted to use the flies, bugs and bacteria. But you had to use mushrooms.

Sorry, first thing that popped into my head. (Now don't get Freudian on me!)

[Mattevt]

I'd like to bring this thread back into view.

I believe that unicorn chooses to dodge any arguments that are detrimental to her position. She continually tells people to do research to support her claims. However, this is a debating forum. In a debate you provide your own resources and support your own claims. Maybe she would be better suited for a discussion forum in which she can freely discuss her own beliefs, and not be saddled with the hassle of consistently supporting her arguments.

[Scrotum]

How do we scientifically explain the problem of aging/death without the sin explanation? Science still has no true answer for their causes--free radicals, dna breakdown, failure of cells to regenerate nothing but theories.

Unicorn, everyone here has tried to answer your questions (also pointing out things such as "meaning" is a human subjective), but you only give them short and pointless "ansers" such as "you are wrong", and "i dont agree"... And thats it, you dont give any basis for why you do not agree.


So, i wish to ask, As your main "question" is somewhat strange, In what way would the "sin explanation" explain aging/death? We grow old, we Die. How do you mean? And what about all other life.

Two points i wish for you to answer, also pointing to other answers you gotten from other members, i hope i can get a respected answer, preverably longer then "you are wrong".

1. In what way does the "sin explanation" explain our Aging and Death? (in detail).

2. Other living organism, such as Mushroom or, flies, also die, have these beings / living organism fallen from the grace of God also? Do you have the story about it? (why and so on, whom did what to deserve it, i presume the flies have their own adam and eve story to if this is the case).


Scrotum

[Jose]

You make some very good points, Scro. Frankly, I am totally mystified by this "sin" business. How can it explain death? There is no connection here, as near as I can tell. Unicorn, can you explain this to us? Please don't use very big words, though--I'm new at this "sin" business.

...uhhh, and I'm especially troubled by the death of everything else on earth. Suppose some dudes in some garden do something. Why should this make everything else suddenly die?

...uhhh, while you're at it, can you explain the relationship between "sin" and reproduction? Is sex necessary for sin? Or is there some other sort of sin that is more important? Gosh...the more I get into this, the more confused I get.

But I'm getting off topic. You have characterized science as being unable to provide answers, only theories. What, do you suppose, a theory is? Remember, science uses precise definitions for words (where "precise" does not mean "the same as everyone else understands," but instead means "well-defined with no slop."). "A theory" is no more, and no less, than an explanation that has been tested many, many times and has never been shown to be wrong. You are using the term in a misleading way (that is, you have been misled by people who tried to mislead you). In conversational English, "theory" means "guess" or "unexamined notion that I'm inventing right now." Sometimes it means "conceptual framework" as opposed to "practical application." The Vocal Creationists don't like to admit it, but it's cheating to use the wrong definition of a word, with intent to deceive.

The point is: the best science can ever do is provide theories. The longer a theory has withstood tests (e.g. evolution over 150 years or so), the more likely it is to be true. Theories that don't withstand tests (e.g. phlogiston) stop being theories, and instead become part of the vast history of Failed Ideas.

Unfortunately, you are looking for Absolute Truth. Only religion claims to provide that. And, of course each religion presents its own Absolute Truth, which may be very different from other Absolute Truths. There are so many different Absolute Truths presented by different religions, that I find it hard to distinguish one from the other. They all kinda blur together in a kind of cacophany.

One of the reasons that science is honest enough to use "theory" rather than "Truth" is that science attempts to answer questions for which the answer is not known beforehand--like how and why aging occurs. Obviously, if we knew the answer, there would be no reason to try to figure it out. Also obviously, since we don't know the answer, we have no magic bell or gold star that appears when we get it. The best criterion is that it survives attempts to disprove it.

So, what does cause aging? There are many factors, obviously. It looks like different factors have different impacts in different species, which makes it even more difficult. Fortunately, there are mutations that lead to premature aging. Mostly, these are in "model systems" like flies or worms, but there is progeria in humans as well. Many of the mutations point to different proximate causes. Some of the information points to oxygen radicals. Some of the information points to that weird tradeoff between eating and dying--caloric restriction (ie not eating anywhere near enough) seems to extend lifespan in many species.

So, we don't know the answer yet. We don't have all the pieces of the puzzle. Does this mean we will never know the answer? Does it mean that god made us too stupid to figure it out? Or does it mean that maybe, just maybe, if we study the problem some more, we might learn more? It seems pretty defeatist to say "I don't know entirely how this works, and I'm pretty sure I'm too dumb ever to figure it out, so I'll conclude that god did it." It also seems, at least to me, that god doesn't just zap us all with a lightening bolt and *pow* there we go. God seems to work through biochemistry. If he gave us the smarts to understand biochemistry, doesn't it seem likely that he kinda wants us to use those smarts, and figure out the clever biochemical system that he set up? Maybe the biggest sin of all is not understanding biochemistry.