Patriotism

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Is it possible to love your country too much?


You have seen them. The flag-toters. The "America can do no wrong" crowd. Their cars, houses, and clothes all decked out in red, white, and blue. Such people will agree with absolutely any policy the government applies, and anyone who disagrees is, quite frankly, an evil liberal.


Nationalism breeds pride, arrogance, greed, violence, and selfishness. I feel that history backs up this statement. Can't just about every war in the history of humanity be at least partially attributed to nationalistic interests? You would be hard pressed to cite one that doesen't.

I reject the notion that a good citizen should sport an un-conditional love for their country. I hate America in a number of aspects. I consider this my civic duty, as a matter of fact. How may we ever progress as a country if we neglect to lobby for change, when the need for change becomes apparent?

The world is far from achieving the utopian idea of a united global state. And as long as we are stuck in the current condition of blind patriotism indifferent to the needs of others, the farther away this goal becomes.

When many countries compete, some countries will lose.

Personally, I do not want any losers.
I would urge everyone to support not merely the interests of ones own country, but the interests of every country, every person, inevery corner of the planet. I believe that such a change of attitude is the first step towards peace.

It is human nature to compete. But it does not have to be this way. We have clearly evolved much since the first humans. God forbid we take advantage of these new capabilities and progress beyond our primitive ancestors.




Tell me what you think. Can one be patriotic without crossing the line over into 'nationalistic'? Are there any upsides to patriotism? What is even the purpose of patriotism? Is it ones civic duty to be patriotic?

[juliod]

Is the American flag fetish idolatrous?

Yes. But just try telling that to a fascist... oops, sorry... patriotic christian.

DanZ

[questioner4]

I think it's wrong to pressure people into being patriotic, when people don't choose the country of his or her birth. Does anyone here think it's wrong for an American to prefer another country - like Canada, for instance? Do anyone here think there's anything wrong with an American choosing to listen to Canadian music - like The Tragically Hip, for instance? Americans should not have to be patriotic to the US, if they happen to prefer another country. Also, what about people who are neither proud or ashamed to be American? Maybe some people choose to break down the arbitrary boundaries, and just show loyal to humanity as a whole. Anyway, there's my input.

[AlAyeti]

Look at the frenzy with which "some' American patriots defend abortion. More Americans have been slaughtered in abortions mills than have ever fought in America's wars.

Look at the "peace activists" that march and shriek on American streets to insult American soldiers, while never stepping a foot out of their Birkenstocks to help a suffering and dying person in another country.

These "leftists" patriots are extremist and murderous at the same time.

Yes, patriotism can be a bad thing. Just watch an ultrasound of a baby being torn to shreds during an abortion (of course their shrieks go unheard) or watch a bunch of Jihadists machine-gunning down a group of peaceful Christians attending Church somewhere in an Islamic country.

[MagusYanam]

I think it's wrong to pressure people into being patriotic, when people don't choose the country of his or her birth. Does anyone here think it's wrong for an American to prefer another country - like Canada, for instance?

Yes I do! And amen! I've always wanted to be a Brit, when so much of Western culture and history is tied up in the UK. They're a liberal democratic, intellectually flourishing society and their politicians actually know how to debate. And I'd actually be able to live in a constitutional monarchy with a real nobility; how cool would that be?

Rule Britannia!

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Your not bothered at all by Blair?


He's like, an evil Bush clone from planet Texas; a counterpart created to infect Brits with Bushism.


Anyone else smell a conspiracy?

[MagusYanam]

Perhaps I should have qualified my nationalism toward Britain with the sentiment that the New Labours are probably going to have to jettison Blair shortly (or will have to to get my vote). Since even his own party is steamed at him right now, I doubt he'll be able to do any more damage during this term. Even if he does, he won't be re-elected.

At any rate, I'm not a big NL fan in the first place; I'd probably end up voting Lib Dem. (Definitely not Tory.)

[Dilettante]

As for myself, I'm very happy to be Spanish. Spain is already mentioned in the Bible, we gave Rome a couple emperors and a bunch of great writers, the first modern language used to write a philosophical piece was probably Spanish, the word "liberal" was almost certainly coined here in Spain, the notion that we have ethical duties toward all humans regardless of race was first championed by Francisco de Vitoria and the members of the School of Salamanca in the 16th century, Spain is one of the oldest states in Europe... I do not wish to bore you, but there are good things about being Spanish. Of course pride and nationalism are dangerous. Especially when you mythologize history. We have seen this in Spain in the past 100 years, with the invention of Catalan and Basque nationalism and pseudohistory. I don't like loudmouth patriotism but I wish people in my country were a little bit more patriotic about what is common to us all, instead of inventing little mythical identities for their home regions.

[ST88]

Your not bothered at all by Blair?


He's like, an evil Bush clone from planet Texas; a counterpart created to infect Brits with Bushism.


Anyone else smell a conspiracy?

I don't think Blair is specifically a Bush guy. He was a Clinton guy when Clinton was president. Some would say that Clinton's charisma was the reason Blair was installed in power in the first place (other than that he was the anti-John Major). Rather, Blair is pro-America, with whatever that entails. So cozying up to Bush is not necessarily Bushite.

[ST88]

Okay then. If everyone presumably agrees that excess patriotism is bad, tell me what you think constitutes "excess". At what point does humble patriotism become ignorant and concieted? Pledge of allegiance? Extreme overabundance of flags/American colors? Bashing other countries?

I have come across many people who heartily disagree with the war, yet "support our troops", as noted by the multiple yellow ribbons on the back of their car. I don't quite understand how one can support the troops without agreeing with what they are doing. Is this a sign of blind patriotism? Supporting your country even through something you feel is wrong?

Them's fightin' words, buddy!

I think that patriotism itself is a rather dubious concept. In my opinion, where one is born is an arbitrary distinction, and is a needless cause of pride. For example, I am not necesssarily proud to be an American; instead, I feel damn lucky to be an American. I believe in the concept of America -- maybe because I've been indoctrinated, a separate issue perhaps -- and as a result, I'm glad that I'm here enjoying the benefits of such a society. I think it's largely a result of indoctrination, however, that makes one believe in one's own nation. For example, had I been born in some other country, I would probably not have the same relationship to that country that I do to this one. If I were a Kazakh, I would have a different outlook on life -- not because I woul dbe genetically different, but because I would have been brought up differently.

I don't understand the fear of world government. I don't understand the fear of losing a "national identity". Maybe this is because I'm an American mutt. My ancestors were English, German, Swedish, Hungarian, Bohemian, Belgian, French Candian, Colonial American, Jewish, and French (that I know of, he said knowingly). But even if my ancestors were from all one nation, at what point in my ancestry does nationalism apply? Go back far enough in history and you'll find that the French were once Celtic. The Hungarians were once Uralic. So what does that mean?

I don't like loudmouth patriotism but I wish people in my country were a little bit more patriotic about what is common to us all, instead of inventing little mythical identities for their home regions.

Dilettante mentioned the Spanish contribution to civilization. But what, exactly, does that mean? What is the difference between a mythical history and an actual one? Not to put you on the spot, Dil, but what does Charles V of Hapsburg or Cervantes have to do with who you are as a person?

[The Persnickety Platypus]

The origin of the 'patriotism' can probably be related back to human/animal instinct; compete, survive. Everyone has an internal desire to be part of the dominant clan, which can grant varying benefits. The effort to attain a distinct culture serves as fuel for pride, which quickly leads to arrogance.

What humans consistantly neglect is the fact that we are substantially more sophisticated than other animals. We don't need to compete when we can cooperate.

Oh how I wish we could abolish the boundaries seperating peoples. But alas, the predominant factors of pride and greed effectively stand in the way of that.