Submission

[Wootah]

It is my understanding that within Islam one must submit to Allah.

However my understanding of submission is that submission is the most useless way of learning about something. I cannot conceive of the benefit of submission in learning about any subject from God to potato peeling.

My evidence that submission is useless as a concept is that I cannot think of one practical application of submission in life. Can you? Does a person learn by submission or by being active and learning and struggling to learn? Does a person break their shackles by submission or struggle? Did a baby learn to walk by submission or by struggle?

At best I have found only one use for submission: as a tool that can help me persevere through adversity. As a Christian that makes sense. Submission is a tool that can help my adversary see how unconscionable they are being. Turning the other cheek, offering my cloak, carrying their pack are all means that submission can help prick my adversary's conscience. But here the one I am submitting to is an adversary. Is God your adversary? Can I add that Jesus submitted to our will on the cross. We wanted him dead and we killed him and only this pricked the conscience of so many as to what we really are.

I would say that with God, I submit to his teachings but only after struggling against them, wrestling with God's word as Jacob wrestled with God literally.

The logical problem with Islam is that if one embraces submission then one is committing themselves to believing X, often where X is clearly false in any other context. It is why Muslims write "Allah knows best" at the end of whatever they write. In other words submission allows the Muslim to accept they know something is illogical but since Allah knows best then maybe it is logical to Allah. This unfortunately means that there is no single statement that might not be true or logical according to Allah. This should be disturbing for any individual that wishes to be or remain a Muslim.

If 1+1 =2 and Allah told a Muslim that 1+1=42 would the Muslim believe what they know or what Allah told them?

In short:
Philosophically the point is valid. One cannot learn about X unless one tests its properties. Can you find any use in submission in secular life? The concept of submission in Islam is one of the chief causes of the problems in Islamic society and chief reason (outside of violence) holding Muslims to Allah. It allows Muslims to read nonsense, know it is nonsense, submit, say 'Allah is greater' and remain a Muslim.

Rebuttals?

[sarabellum]

I once got caught in a rip-tide while I was playing in the ocean....
Try as I might, struggle as I might, I was unable to break free....
I thought I was going to be swept out to sea....

I struggled with every fiber of my being, I wanted to survive.....
So much so, that it was the struggling that nearly drowned me....
Not the rip tide....

On the verge of exhaustion, and close to my own death, I submitted to the power of the current....

I stopped fighting....
I knew that the ocean was too strong for me to struggle against...
I submitted.

Of course this lead to my freedom.

[Wootah]

I once got caught in a rip-tide while I was playing in the ocean....
Try as I might, struggle as I might, I was unable to break free....
I thought I was going to be swept out to sea....

I struggled with every fiber of my being, I wanted to survive.....
So much so, that it was the struggling that nearly drowned me....
Not the rip tide....

On the verge of exhaustion, and close to my own death, I submitted to the power of the current....

I stopped fighting....
I knew that the ocean was too strong for me to struggle against...
I submitted.

Of course this lead to my freedom.

Thank you.

[Ball Pean]

It is my understanding that within Islam one must submit to Allah.

However my understanding of submission is that submission is the most useless way of learning about something. I cannot conceive of the benefit of submission in learning about any subject from God to potato peeling.

My evidence that submission is useless as a concept is that I cannot think of one practical application of submission in life. Can you? Does a person learn by submission or by being active and learning and struggling to learn? Does a person break their shackles by submission or struggle? Did a baby learn to walk by submission or by struggle?

At best I have found only one use for submission: as a tool that can help me persevere through adversity. As a Christian that makes sense. Submission is a tool that can help my adversary see how unconscionable they are being. Turning the other cheek, offering my cloak, carrying their pack are all means that submission can help prick my adversary's conscience. But here the one I am submitting to is an adversary. Is God your adversary? Can I add that Jesus submitted to our will on the cross. We wanted him dead and we killed him and only this pricked the conscience of so many as to what we really are.

I would say that with God, I submit to his teachings but only after struggling against them, wrestling with God's word as Jacob wrestled with God literally.

The logical problem with Islam is that if one embraces submission then one is committing themselves to believing X, often where X is clearly false in any other context. It is why Muslims write "Allah knows best" at the end of whatever they write. In other words submission allows the Muslim to accept they know something is illogical but since Allah knows best then maybe it is logical to Allah. This unfortunately means that there is no single statement that might not be true or logical according to Allah. This should be disturbing for any individual that wishes to be or remain a Muslim.

If 1+1 =2 and Allah told a Muslim that 1+1=42 would the Muslim believe what they know or what Allah told them?

In short:
Philosophically the point is valid. One cannot learn about X unless one tests its properties. Can you find any use in submission in secular life? The concept of submission in Islam is one of the chief causes of the problems in Islamic society and chief reason (outside of violence) holding Muslims to Allah. It allows Muslims to read nonsense, know it is nonsense, submit, say 'Allah is greater' and remain a Muslim.

Rebuttals?

Bravo. You are not enlightened by submitting to someone else's ideas, rather, it comes from taking stands and fighting for the truth. Battle it out, live or die (spiritually speaking).