Do you believe Christianity is in crisis?

[Christianity in crisis?]

I would really enjoy a chat about the visible church and the great amount of disunity found throughout the history of the church. The 21st century actually seems worst with much abuse of scripture interpretation, causing more and more divisions among Christians. Have you made your rounds through the various Christian circles? I believe the doctrine of sola scriptura has been abused, and don't believe the answer is the Catholic Church, nor a form of restoration theology.

[Christianity in crisis?]

Please explain the religion of humanism.

See the above link, McCulloch's post on it is very straightforward.

Are you saying mankind can resolve his own problems?

Yes, who else is going to solve our problems?

How are we doing on our own?

Well for the most part we have discarded anarchy, imperialism, theocracy, feudalism, etc...

We have advanced medicine to greatly increase life expectancy and quality.

We have opposed tyranny and fought for universal human rights.

I would say we are doing pretty good on our own.

How does the belief of humanism explain fallen mankind, evil, good and bad, divine justice, earthly justice?

Does humanism need to explain all those thing? I am pretty sure "fallen mankind" and "divine justice" would not make the cut as most do no adhere to those ideologies.

Do you really believe humanity has made progress of loving our neighbors as ourselves? That's not much of a debate if you read the front page of the newspaper everyday. I believe humanity cannot solve our own problems from within because we are all broken beyond self-repair. How do explain the daily bad news in which all countries, races, religions are affected by? The root of evil deeds is still humanity.

[Board]

Do you really believe humanity has made progress of loving our neighbors as ourselves? That's not much of a debate if you read the front page of the newsaper everyday. I believe humanity cannot solve our own problems from within because we are all broken. How do explain the daily bad news in which all countries, races, religions are affected by? The root of evil deeds is still humanity.

Relying on media coverage for your case is not very compelling. The straw man you are attempting to set up is not going to work. What percent of the population is covered by the media? Violence and depressing news sells so of course they will report on those stories.

[McCulloch]

Humanism... have you read your history books, or today's front page news? Look in the mirror and you will find your worst enemy.

Yes, I have read history. And the newspaper.
Are you claiming that bad things reported in history or in news are the result of humanist philosophy?

Please explain the religion of humanism.

I have never claimed that humanism is a religion. Humanism is a philosophy and an ethical stance. It advocates that we abandon most of what humans call religion.

Are you saying mankind can resolve his own problems?

I am saying that humanity must resolve our own problems. There is no Sky Daddy that is going to step in and save us from ourselves. There is no afterlife where everything will be OK for the faithful.

How are we doing on our own?

We're still here. Crime is down. The recognition of human rights is slowly improving, with regrettable setbacks. We successfully ended the Cold War, without holding World War III. There is room for cautious optimism.

How does the belief of humanism explain fallen mankind

I don't know what you mean by fallen mankind. Humans, having evolved from other apes are not perfect nor have we ever been. We have not fallen from some mythical perfect state in an ideal garden provided by the god. We no longer sanction wars to spread religion or to acquire land for divinely mandated kings.

[How does the belief of humanism explain] evil, good and bad,

Some people are greedy, self-indulgent and short sighted. You need a god to explain that? I don't.

[How does the belief of humanism explain] divine justice,

What divine justice? The universe is not fair. Life is not fair. There is no evidence that there will be a god who will intervene and make everything fair in the end. We like the concepts of fairness and justice. They are quite useful in the operation of human society. But it is a mistake to extend it beyond human society. As they say, stuff happens.

[How does the belief of humanism explain] earthly justice?

Human justice is a very useful concept. I believe in an ethical system built not on imagined gods and alleged revelations from those gods, but on reason and the demonstrable fact of our common humanity. A human system of justice on earth is an integral part of the humanist vision.

[Christianity in crisis?]

Do you really believe humanity has made progress of loving our neighbors as ourselves? That's not much of a debate if you read the front page of the newsaper everyday. I believe humanity cannot solve our own problems from within because we are all broken. How do explain the daily bad news in which all countries, races, religions are affected by? The root of evil deeds is still humanity.

Relying on media coverage for your case is not very compelling. The straw man you are attempting to set up is not going to work. What percent of the population is covered by the media? Violence and depressing news sells so of course they will report on those stories.

Yep, you don't have to go to the media. We all just need to look in the mirror, our own families, and our own friends, and you will find that self-help will not work. Our condition is a universal condition that we are all born with. There are no exceptions. So, it appears you reject the Christian's viewpoint on fallen mankind. Why do you believe people die? Do you believe we have to save ourselves, and what are we trying to save ourselves from?

[Christianity in crisis?]

Humanism... have you read your history books, or today's front page news? Look in the mirror and you will find your worst enemy.

Yes, I have read history. And the newspaper.
Are you claiming that bad things reported in history or in news are the result of humanist philosophy?

Please explain the religion of humanism.

I have never claimed that humanism is a religion. Humanism is a philosophy and an ethical stance. It advocates that we abandon most of what humans call religion.

Are you saying mankind can resolve his own problems?

I am saying that humanity must resolve our own problems. There is no Sky Daddy that is going to step in and save us from ourselves. There is no afterlife where everything will be OK for the faithful.

How are we doing on our own?

We're still here. Crime is down. The recognition of human rights is slowly improving, with regrettable setbacks. We successfully ended the Cold War, without holding World War III. There is room for cautious optimism.

How does the belief of humanism explain fallen mankind

I don't know what you mean by fallen mankind. Humans, having evolved from other apes are not perfect nor have we ever been. We have not fallen from some mythical perfect state in an ideal garden provided by the god. We no longer sanction wars to spread religion or to acquire land for divinely mandated kings.

[How does the belief of humanism explain] evil, good and bad,

Some people are greedy, self-indulgent and short sighted. You need a god to explain that? I don't.

[How does the belief of humanism explain] divine justice,

What divine justice? The universe is not fair. Life is not fair. There is no evidence that there will be a god who will intervene and make everything fair in the end. We like the concepts of fairness and justice. They are quite useful in the operation of human society. But it is a mistake to extend it beyond human society. As they say, stuff happens.

[How does the belief of humanism explain] earthly justice?

Human justice is a very useful concept. I believe in an ethical system built not on imagined gods and alleged revelations from those gods, but on reason and the demonstrable fact of our common humanity. A human system of justice on earth is an integral part of the humanist vision.

Okay, now we have a better idea of where we are coming from. Do you believe the world is broken and needs fixing? How do you determine whose set of morals are right or wrong? Should we all do what is right in our own eyes? A collective value defined by secular society changes like the wind, doesn't it? Do you consider yourself to be an agnostic, or bold enough to proclaim that there is no God? And if so, on what basis can you support that claim?

[McCulloch]

Do you really believe humanity has made progress of loving our neighbors as ourselves?

Wholesale slaughter of civilian populations in war is not as well approved of as when the allies fire-bombed Dresden. The ownership of other humans as slaves and chattel is no longer put forward by Christians as an acceptable ethical choice as it was 150 years ago. Most of the countries in the OECD are coming to the recognize that health care is not is best not left to private for-profit providers, but is a community responsibility. Yes, we're making progress.

That's not much of a debate if you read the front page of the newspaper everyday.

• Balto. Co. crime drops in first half of 2010
• Crime rate at 10-year low in the first half of 2010
• Chicago Murders Down, Crime Rate Drops For 21st Consecutive Month
• News briefs for October 5: Crime rates move downward
• Revellers praised for drop in crime rates
• Canada's crime rate has actually dropped 15 per cent since 1988

I believe humanity cannot solve our own problems from within because we are all broken beyond self-repair.

And some Christians think that atheists are negative and nihilistic! I believe that we have come this far and if we don't learn to live together and solve our problems, no one is going to do it for us. We humans have proven to be a resourceful, imaginative and clever bunch. We might just pull it off. I think that is a much better attitude than "we are all broken beyond self-repair".

[McCulloch]

Okay, now we have a better idea of where we are coming from.

You're new here. I (and many who have been reading my posts here for a while) already have a good idea where I am coming from. But I am more than willing to help you to get a better idea where I am coming from.

Do you believe the world is broken and needs fixing?

I believe that we have serious problems and that we have the capacity to really screw things up badly. We really do need to improve in some very specific areas.

How do you determine whose set of morals are right or wrong?

I don't. I try to determine what actions would be the best for the most people.

A collective value defined by secular society changes like the wind, doesn't it?

No. It may not be rigid and unbending like some religionists like to think that their religion based ideals are said to be, but we have remained consistently heading the same direction. It is a progression, so no, I don't believe in a one-size-fits all divine revelation. The US Constitution, that marvelous product of Enlightenment thinking, was designed to be amended. Even when some of those amendments are as boneheaded as the Eighteenth Amendment. Morality is a path not a destination. So is history. We have to figure it out as we go along. It is scary sometimes. We are the collective creators of humanity's destiny. There may be some comfort in abdicating that responsibility, but the truth is, here we are. We will make of it what we will. There are no other options.

Do you consider yourself to be an agnostic, or bold enough to proclaim that there is no God? And if so, on what basis can you support that claim?

I consider myself an ignostic. I believe that the word god without context is sufficiently ambiguous that any discussion of the existence of god is meaningless until a suitable consistent definition is provided.

However, to avoid being accused of evading the question, I do not believe that the God described in the Christian Bible exists. However, that is not the topic of this particular debate.

[Christianity in crisis?]

Okay, now we have a better idea of where we are coming from.

You're new here. I (and many who have been reading my posts here for a while) already have a good idea where I am coming from. But I am more than willing to help you to get a better idea where I am coming from.

Do you believe the world is broken and needs fixing?

I believe that we have serious problems and that we have the capacity to really screw things up badly. We really do need to improve in some very specific areas.

How do you determine whose set of morals are right or wrong?

I don't. I try to determine what actions would be the best for the most people.

A collective value defined by secular society changes like the wind, doesn't it?

No. It may not be rigid and unbending like some religionists like to think that their religion based ideals are said to be, but we have remained consistently heading the same direction. It is a progression, so no, I don't believe in a one-size-fits all divine revelation. The US Constitution, that marvelous product of Enlightenment thinking, was designed to be amended. Even when some of those amendments are as boneheaded as the Eighteenth Amendment. Morality is a path not a destination. So is history. We have to figure it out as we go along. It is scary sometimes. We are the collective creators of humanity's destiny. There may be some comfort in abdicating that responsibility, but the truth is, here we are. We will make of it what we will. There are no other options.

Do you consider yourself to be an agnostic, or bold enough to proclaim that there is no God? And if so, on what basis can you support that claim?

I consider myself an ignostic. I believe that the word god without context is sufficiently ambiguous that any discussion of the existence of god is meaningless until a suitable consistent definition is provided.

However, to avoid being accused of evading the question, I do not believe that the God described in the Christian Bible exists. However, that is not the topic of this particular debate.

Thanks for all of your stimulating thoughts. I do enjoy a good conversation from different perspectives. To be an agnostic, athesist, or Christian is a step of faith. There are some realities such as we all die. And when we consider the size of the known universe, we are but a speck of dust. So, why are we here, or what is your purpose in this life, or is life just meaningless and we should just do what gives us the most pleasure? The US constitution is only applicable to us Americans, but does not really apply in a universal sense.

[Zzyzx]

.

To be an agnostic, athesist, or Christian is a step of faith.

Replace “Christian� with “Theist�, add Ignostic, and that should cover nearly everyone. However, the term “faith� is inappropriate and should be replaced with “a matter of personal choice and opinion�. No “faith� is required in Non-Theism.

There are some realities such as we all die. And when we consider the size of the known universe, we are but a speck of dust.

Yes, humans are mortal and are insignificant at universe scale. Therefore, . . . . . what?

Many people seem to struggle with those concepts and often invent various mental constructs to make themselves seem more important or even “immortal� in some respect. Realism accepts the facts and deals with the real world we inhabit.

So, why are we here,

We are here because we were born. Animals, including homo sapiens, reproduce.

or what is your purpose in this life,

“Purpose� is decided by the individual for the individual. There is no evidence of a grand “purpose of life� – any more than flowers can be said to have “purpose�.

or is life just meaningless

Life is meaningless or meaningful for the individual according to individual decisions. Some make a lot from a little and others do just the opposite.

Many people chose to look for “meaning� outside themselves and their sphere of influence – often looking to one of the thousands of proposed “gods�.

and we should just do what gives us the most pleasure?

Some choose to devote their lives to pleasure, others find “meaning� and fulfillment through more outward focus – things beyond the self.

The US constitution is only applicable to us Americans, but does not really apply in a universal sense.

The Constitution is a legal document relating to governance of a society. It is not individually or universally applicable – and is not a code of ethics.

[McCulloch]

Thanks for all of your stimulating thoughts.

Thank you for prodding.

I do enjoy a good conversation from different perspectives.

We all need to think about things from various perspectives.

To be an agnostic, atheist, or Christian is a step of faith.

I fail to see how agnosticism is a step of faith. Is it not a lack of faith?

There are some realities such as we all die.

We agree! There are those who deny this reality and think that there is some kind of afterlife.

And when we consider the size of the known universe, we are but a speck of dust. So, why are we here, or what is your purpose in this life, or is life just meaningless and we should just do what gives us the most pleasure?

False dichotomy. We are here. We make whatever meaning our lives have ourselves in our lives. Anything more is just wishful thinking

The US constitution is only applicable to us Americans, but does not really apply in a universal sense.

The US constitution is a truly amazing document. Considering the time and prevailing attitudes, it was a daring experiment, hugely ahead of its time. The principles expressed there have been tested and imitated in many other county's constitutions, including my own. My country's first constitution was an act of British Parliament. The British North America Act of 1867. How sad is that? We finely got around to enacting our own constitution and a Charter of Rights and Freedoms in 1982. Yet reading them, you can see the profound influence of the US constitution and the Bill of Rights. If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, then so many nations pay tribute to the USA in similar fashion.