Ethics: Whats the point?

[2ndRateMind]

So, what is the point of ethics? Why shouldn't we all live greedy, selfish lives and let the devil take the hindmost?

I would argue there are three main reasons to be ethical:

• 1) An ethical society is a better society to live in.
  2) An ethical person is a happier, more fulfilled person.
  3) An ethical person is 'saved', in the religious sense of salvation.

It does strike me though, that we need to sort out amongst ourselves the point of being ethical, even before we attempt to discuss what ethical behaviour might be. Though each informs the other, I think one needs to start out with a transparent agenda.

Any comments, welcome.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Divine Insight]

I would argue there are three main reasons to be ethical:

1) An ethical society is a better society to live in.

Agreed. Only because what we typically deem to be 'ethical' references behaviors that we consider to be productive and positive for everyone.

So this first consideration is basically the definition of what the very meaning of the term 'ethical'.


2) An ethical person is a happier, more fulfilled person.

Again, this pretty much follows from the definition of the concept.

3) An ethical person is 'saved', in the religious sense of salvation.

Only within the context of religious theologies that proclaim that some God will damn people who are not ethical.

This is most likely nothing more than the wishful thinking of people who would prefer to be ethical.

While I personally have no desire to see vengeance taken out on unethical people, I would find the idea that by being ethical I would somehow be magically rewarded for my ethical behavior in some afterlife or whatever.

As far as I'm concerned this is certainly not a reason to be ethical. Either a person desires to be ethical (i.e. good) or they don't. If they were making the choice to behave ethically when they would actually prefer to behave otherwise they would be fraudulent in their intent anyway.

So I dismiss the theological reasons for being ethical as utterly absurd. Even if there existed a God who cares about ethics that would still not be a valid reason for any human to pretend to be ethical when in reality they aren't.

A person either desires to be good or they don't. No amount of theology can change that. So I reject #3 as being a valid reason to be ethical. If a person doesn't want to be ethical for reasons #1 and #2, then let's face it, they aren't an ethical person.

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 1 by 2ndRateMind]

The one reason for me to be ethical is this: Because I want to be ethical.
The one reason for others to be ethical is this: Because I want them to ethical.

[2ndRateMind]

[Replying to post 3 by Bust Nak]

Indeed. But I am trying to get to the reasons why I, or you, or anyone else, might want to be ethical. Or why I, or you, or anyone else, might want everyone else to be ethical.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[2ndRateMind]

I would argue there are three main reasons to be ethical:

1) An ethical society is a better society to live in.

Agreed. Only because what we typically deem to be 'ethical' references behaviors that we consider to be productive and positive for everyone.

So this first consideration is basically the definition of what the very meaning of the term 'ethical'...

Yes, I think you are quite right to tackle the meaning of the word: 'ethical'. Philosophers have been doing so for many centuries, and still not arrived at any distinct conclusion. As far as I can see, however, doing what is ethical involves doing what is right, regardless of how productive and positive that might or might not be, for the individual concerned. And doing what is right arises out of universal and unconditional love, such as Jesus demonstrated during and at the end of His life.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Divine Insight]

And doing what is right arises out of universal and unconditional love.

I disagree that what is right arises from universal or unconditional love. Doing what is right can actually arise from pure selfish interests. No need to love anyone other than yourself. That alone is a sufficient reason to do what is right.

People who think they can do wrong things and not be negatively affected by them are simply mistaken.

Also, there is no such thing as unconditional love. Jesus most certainly never offered anyone unconditional love. According to Christian theology there are tons of conditions placed on Jesus' love. Same is true for Yahweh.

A person does not need to have unconditional love for anyone in order to do what's right.

Also, when it come to arguing over the definition of ethics, all that really boils down to is arguing over what people see as being right or wrong. We know that there are no absolutes in this area. So many things that we subjectively judge to be right or wrong amount to nothing more than personal subjective opinions.

You and I may not agree on what's right or wrong in various situations. In fact, I take the position that many actions are neither right nor wrong. They simply don't need to be categorized or judged in that manner.

Obviously if I like cherry ice cream and dislike chocolate, while you feel precisely the opposite this doesn't make either one of us right or wrong. We simply have two different subjective judgements on taste.

Once we realize this, the same can be applied to many other preferences.

For example, is it ethical for two people of the same sex to marriage and have a physical intimate relationship. I would personally say that it doesn't matter. In other words, it's not something that we even bother to need to label as being right or wrong.

You, on the other hand, may have a different opinion on that.

But clearly in this case right and wrong comes down to personal opinion.

There are no absolutes.

We even recognize that killing someone is not absolutely wrong. We only call it "murder" when we feel that it was wrong. If we don't feel that it was wrong, then we don't call it murder.

So many things are based upon subjective opinion, and love doesn't even come into play at all. Much less any need for unconditional love which no one has ever exhibited, including Jesus.

[2ndRateMind]

I disagree that what is right arises from universal or unconditional love. Doing what is right can actually arise from pure selfish interests. No need to love anyone other than yourself. That alone is a sufficient reason to do what is right.

Uh huh. But I would argue that we feel our own pains and fears and insecurities more readily and proximately than those of others. Thus there needs to be some bridge between how we are, and how others are, and that can only be provided by universal and unconditional love.

There are no absolutes.

Well, imagine if there were. Infinite love, infinite righteousness, infinite justice, infinite mercy, infinite kindness, etc, would be what I would expect of God. And so I have found Him to be. Should He ever fall short, believe me, I would not be a believer, but an insistent resister, however futile such resistance might be.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Divine Insight]

Well, imagine if there were. Infinite love, infinite righteousness, infinite justice, infinite mercy, infinite kindness, etc, would be what I would expect of God. And so I have found Him to be. Should He ever fall short, believe me, I would not be a believer, but an insistent resister, however futile such resistance might be.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Making up your own imaginary God's is fine. But the attributes you would like for God to have are not the attributes of either Jesus or Yahweh. So if you want a God that has all these qualities, then the Hebrew God doesn't meet your standards of what you think a God should be.

And yes, if there is a God and he turns out to be a jerk, then resistance is futile. And there wouldn't be much anyone could do about it. That's true. Let's all hope that's not the case.

[2ndRateMind]

Well, imagine if there were. Infinite love, infinite righteousness, infinite justice, infinite mercy, infinite kindness, etc, would be what I would expect of God. And so I have found Him to be. Should He ever fall short, believe me, I would not be a believer, but an insistent resister, however futile such resistance might be.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Making up your own imaginary God's is fine. But the attributes you would like for God to have are not the attributes of either Jesus or Yahweh. So if you want a God that has all these qualities, then the Hebrew God doesn't meet your standards of what you think a God should be.

Well, I'm inclined to believe in the philosophers' 'omnimax' God, rather than the 'warrior king' God of a primitive bronze age tribe. I think humanity has made intellectual and moral progress since the OT was written, and I do not apologise for discarding anachronistic notions as to God's nature, in favour of some concept somewhat more informed and enlightened.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[marco]

Uh huh. But I would argue that we feel our own pains and fears and insecurities more readily and proximately than those of others. Thus there needs to be some bridge between how we are, and how others are, and that can only be provided by universal and unconditional love.

People live wth local love and local interests. A mother will do anything to protect her son. There's nothing to prevent thungs smashing our door down and entering our homes; I suppose this was commonplace in a more barbaric age, but our need for safety and stability built laws to which we subscribe. The notion of some universal and unconditional love is both fanciful and irrelevant.

Well, imagine if there were. Infinite love, infinite righteousness, infinite justice, infinite mercy, infinite kindness, etc, would be what I would expect of God. And so I have found Him to be.

I suggest that you cannot possibly have found this: you have no way of measuring boundlessness of abstract qualities. You can understand love and hate; cold and warmth etc but there is no need to regard them on an infinite scale. In our daily lives we are not conscious of an interacting deity: we buy morning apers without consulting him; we may attend funerals and hear prayers, but there is never a response.

We live our lives for US and we make moral rules for US. Many of us don't eat human flesh, or throw poisoned spears at neighbours or bury our daughters alive. Perhaps there was a point in the past when we did. Ethics has the remarkable benefit of keeping me reasonably safe. If there are times when I might wish to act unethically, without hurting others, then perhaps I do. But I am ever conscious of the consequences to ME of any of my actions. That and not God holds me in check.

Should He ever fall short, believe me, I would not be a believer,

If you derive your information from the biographical details of God in the OT, then you might consider that he killed Lot's wife for peeping; killed kids for mocking and asked Abraham to murder his son. That should at least raise a moral eyebrow.