Using field research (Meditation) to discover Consciousness

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Using field research (Meditation) to discover Consciousness

Post #1

Post by Swami »

On Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:39 pm, TSGracchus stated the following:
TSGracchus wrote:So you think that flipping coins and checking the I Ching, or laying out Tarot cards, or astrology will substitute for science?

Meditation can calm the mind. But it has not produced scientific discovery.

But, by all means, ignore or discard the findings of "Western science" and consult the lint in your navel for answers.
The statements above clearly show a lack of knowledge and experience with meditative practices. It also shows intolerance. As I proposed before, scientists can discover the origins and nature of consciousness and the Universe using field research. You have no evidence that my approach would not work because you lack the experience that I have with meditation. Your proposal is for science to continue in its failed reductionistic and materialistic approach. Centuries have passed and reducto-materialism has still left mankind with the same important questions that we've been asking since our beginning.

""insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."


Let us address some of your claims and show why science needs to adopt meditation as a means to knowledge.

Why should scientist use meditation?
You stated that meditation "only calms the mind" but you're incorrect. Science shows that meditation leads to higher states of consciousness, changes in brain structure, and to emotional well-being. Science needs to be able to deal with consciousness directly instead of relying on "correlates" of consciousness. Meditation just so happens to be an effective first-person approach to deal with consciousness directly. No one has had more first-person experience with all levels of consciousness than the Eastern religionists - some 2,500 years worth of experience. It's only reasonable that scientists collaborate with Buddhists, Hindus, etc. Many are starting to do just that so that should tell you something!!

How does meditation lead to knowledge?
The simple answer is that meditation leads to a state and experience of pure consciousness. In that state, you can explore and experience how consciousness in its most pure form works which of course opens the door to direct "knowledge".
Locke and Hume, believed that we could gain knowledge about the mind through a careful examination of inner experience. If it is true that meditation makes
available certain kinds of inner experience that would not otherwise be possible, then those forms of experience might possibly result in new knowledge.

At the same time, many contemporary researchers in psychology may object to relying on a method of introspection to learn about the mind. In the past, philosophers and armchair psychologists, relying on introspection, have arrived at widely varying conclusions; they have also missed basic facts about how minds work that can be established by simple experiments. Psychologists might argue that introspection simply allows people to project their hypotheses and presuppositions onto their experience and does not help us learn new truths about how the mind works. Only careful experiments, carried out with scienti�c rigor and from a third-person point of view, can reveal such truths.

Buddhists could reply by drawing a distinction between trained and untrained introspection. In most people, they could argue, the faculty of attention is weak and undeveloped, and, as a result, attempts at serious introspection will typically be overwhelmed by various forms of distraction. But those who, through meditation practice, reduce the intensity and frequency of distractions and gradually develop their capacity for attention are eventually able to look at mental phenomena and see them as they actually are.
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Article quotations taken from Dr. Charles Goodman article, Buddhist Meditation Theory and Practice. http://www.academia.edu/36937894/Buddhi ... actice.pdf
You don't have to download anything. Just scroll down and the article will start showing up.
Last edited by Swami on Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #71

Post by brunumb »

William wrote: [Replying to post 69 by brunumb]
Your post is just a string of assertions and opinions with not a shred of supporting evidence to indicate that any of them are true.
So what? That doesn't mean it is incorrect.
You could just as readily suggest that the all-pervasive giant invisible cosmic octopus accounts for everything. It has as much merit as your fanciful explanation.
What are you looking for that makes you want to engage with people like me?

You live on a planet which - if it were indeed the abode of a living being - that would mean nothing more to you than 'the all-pervasive invisible cosmic octopus'?

Whatever your motivation is to express as you do, you will never change the world so that it pleases you. Get used to that brunumb.
You have provided nothing to demonstrate that your imaginative hypothesis is correct, but you continue to present it as if it was a given. Fiction works best when it is internally consistent. Your hypothesis works well as creative fiction but has to pass muster if you want it to be more than that. A comment like "That doesn't mean it is incorrect" betrays a faulty understanding of the burden of proof.
By the way, I am not looking to engage you in depth as your replies consist of nothing more than further unsupported assertions. I am just responding to what you say so that perhaps other skeptics may be stimulated to respond with more effort than I am prepared to expend. You merely have to ignore me if you don't like what I say.

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Post #72

Post by William »

[Replying to post 71 by brunumb]
You have provided nothing to demonstrate that your imaginative hypothesis is correct, but you continue to present it as if it was a given.
Rubbish.

Indeed you 'presented as a given' that "There is no reason why one should understand the planet earth as being the brain-body of a conscious entity." and I pointed out that this was not a given at all, and gave 5 of my own reasons.

1: Doing so provides an explanation for the intelligent process of biological evolution which is absent in the materialistic interpretation.

2: Doing so provides an explanation for the 'why' question, which also is absent from the materialistic interpretation.

3: Doing so provides an explanation as to alternate experiences, which is inadequate in the explanation of current materialistic interpretation.

4: Doing so provides an explanation as to why, when I have made irrational decisions based upon faith, there is always a string of coinciding events which show plainly that intelligence is behind those events, taking a directory role, indicating a living conscious self awareness - extremely capable - yet otherwise invisible. The materialistic interpretation 'it is only coincidence' doesn't work with the strings, as it can only be applied to stand-alone, disconnected events, and not even all of these, I suspect.

5: Doing so provides an explanation as to how come this otherwise invisible entity is recognized as 'GOD' in relation to all religions, even that those religions are different or even oppose each other. If they understood the common connection, they might be able to adjust their attitudes toward each other and the world in general. That is not the Earth Entities fault for making the effort to connect through that route as the spiritually inclined are just better receivers than than materialists. That the downside is mis-information, the reason for that rests solely on the side of the humans, as the creators of any such deceptions.
A comment like "That doesn't mean it is incorrect" betrays a faulty understanding of the burden of proof.
I was not asked for proof! I was replying to the claim you made that 'there is no reason' by showing that there was.

I even showed how the same evidence can be interpreted differently by pointing out what was absent from the materialistic interpretations.

I even pointed out that my interpretations were no less fanciful than the materialist ones.

See the 'burden of proof' is a bogus demand on the part of those who would rather claim such interpretations as 'fanciful' when all the evidence is actually the same and just interpreted differently - which incidentally is an aspect of the OP itself.

Th Western mindset 'demands evidence' for things which require personal individual subjective exploration and experience re the dimensions of consciousness, at the same time as it refuses to go there and discover that evidence for itself.
By the way, I am not looking to engage you in depth as your replies consist of nothing more than further unsupported assertions. I am just responding to what you say so that perhaps other skeptics may be stimulated to respond with more effort than I am prepared to expend. You merely have to ignore me if you don't like what I say.
I prefer to continuing showing the reader that what you argue is easily enough to put in its place.

On the old 'Demand for Evidence" routine.

The oxymoron phrase: "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" debunkedImage

Demanding unspecified evidence to prove that GOD does exist, is fallacy. Image

There ARE no examples of scientific evidence that would convince anyone God exists.Image

Are you actually wanting to buy a car or just wasting time debating with the salesman? Image

What kind of thing(s) would you expect to see which would convince you that GOD exists?Image

You believe your interpretation of the evidence as being the one which is truth. In that, you conflate. Image

I do not rationally expect anyone to come up with the actual evidence of science to support their assertion that science is showing that" GOD does not exist."Image

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Post #73

Post by brunumb »

[Replying to post 72 by William]

Once again all you have done is provide a list of unsupported assertions. They are just explanations in your own mind. That still does not pass muster.
1: Doing so provides an explanation for the intelligent process of biological evolution which is absent in the materialistic interpretation.
First, demonstrate that biological evolution is an intelligent process. What is the explanation? How does it explain? Where is the evidence that the explanation is valid?
2: Doing so provides an explanation for the 'why' question, which also is absent from the materialistic interpretation.
What is the explanation? How does it explain? Where is the evidence that the explanation is valid?

3: Doing so provides an explanation as to alternate experiences, which is inadequate in the explanation of current materialistic interpretation.
Define alternate experiences in order to demonstrate what that actually means and why they must be considered alternate in some sense. What is the explanation? How does it explain? Where is the evidence that the explanation is valid?

4: Doing so provides an explanation as to why, when I have made irrational decisions based upon faith, there is always a string of coinciding events which show plainly that intelligence is behind those events, taking a directory role, indicating a living conscious self awareness - extremely capable - yet otherwise invisible. The materialistic interpretation 'it is only coincidence' doesn't work with the strings, as it can only be applied to stand-alone, disconnected events, and not even all of these, I suspect.
What you have described is personal experience and your interpretations of them have to be validated first. Demonstrate that there is intelligence behind those events or else we just have hearsay. Coincidences don't have to be guided events. What you suspect is irrelevant. Now, what is the explanation? How does it explain? Where is the evidence that the explanation is valid?

5: Doing so provides an explanation as to how come this otherwise invisible entity is recognized as 'GOD' in relation to all religions, even that those religions are different or even oppose each other. If they understood the common connection, they might be able to adjust their attitudes toward each other and the world in general. That is not the Earth Entities fault for making the effort to connect through that route as the spiritually inclined are just better receivers than than materialists. That the downside is mis-information, the reason for that rests solely on the side of the humans, as the creators of any such deceptions.
Commonality of human ancestry and experience also explains why people believe in an invisible supernatural entity. There does not have to be a real god lurking somewhere to explain that. Demonstrate that your EarthEntity is more than just a fictional construct better suited to the comic book Marvel universe. What is the explanation? How does it explain? Where is the evidence that the explanation is valid?

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Post #74

Post by brunumb »

[Replying to post 72 by William]
Th Western mindset 'demands evidence' for things which require personal individual subjective exploration and experience re the dimensions of consciousness, at the same time as it refuses to go there and discover that evidence for itself.
No, the natural human mindset is the reliance on the scientific method to help us weed out nonsensical claims by people making up theories and claiming they have found the truth.
You seem to place so much value on some mystical Eastern mindset. Do you praise the Eastern mindset that still values the curative powers of elephant ivory to the extent that the animals are slaughtered in great numbers just for their tusks? The Eastern mindset you worship is the one that elevates woo and places it on an undeserved pedestal.

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Post #75

Post by William »

[Replying to post 74 by brunumb]
No, the natural human mindset is the reliance on the scientific method to help us weed out nonsensical claims by people making up theories and claiming they have found the truth.
This implies that science is useful for such a thing when the subject is metaphysical. You are inventing such a science because it does not actually exist.

Also your use of the word "Nonsensical" in relation to how I have shown things can be interpreted, is misrepresenting the facts, although it does underline a possibly inability of the some western mindsets to find sense in something foreign to the way they have been trained to see and think about things.
You seem to place so much value on some mystical Eastern mindset.
You have therefore misunderstood what I have been writing in my posts in this thread. My position is that it wouldn't hurt for these different approaches to understanding Consciousness were merged. In this I agree with the gist and essence of the OP.
Do you praise the Eastern mindset that still values the curative powers of elephant ivory to the extent that the animals are slaughtered in great numbers just for their tusks?
What has that got to do with this thread? Nothing, of course!
The Eastern mindset you worship is the one that elevates woo and places it on an undeserved pedestal.
I worship no such thing. I remain open to possibilities related to consciousness and experience, alternate or otherwise and accept my own as genuine.

Do you have anything to say about the things I have actually said to which you can try to pull to bits in a logical manner worthy of attention or are you just going to continue with the pointless ruse of making declarations as to my person and agenda?

You could start by addressing this:
Indeed you 'presented as a given' that "There is no reason why one should understand the planet earth as being the brain-body of a conscious entity." and I pointed out that this was not a given at all, and gave 5 of my own reasons.

1: Doing so provides an explanation for the intelligent process of biological evolution which is absent in the materialistic interpretation.

2: Doing so provides an explanation for the 'why' question, which also is absent from the materialistic interpretation.

3: Doing so provides an explanation as to alternate experiences, which is inadequate in the explanation of current materialistic interpretation.

4: Doing so provides an explanation as to why, when I have made irrational decisions based upon faith, there is always a string of coinciding events which show plainly that intelligence is behind those events, taking a directory role, indicating a living conscious self awareness - extremely capable - yet otherwise invisible. The materialistic interpretation 'it is only coincidence' doesn't work with the strings, as it can only be applied to stand-alone, disconnected events, and not even all of these, I suspect.

5: Doing so provides an explanation as to how come this otherwise invisible entity is recognized as 'GOD' in relation to all religions, even that those religions are different or even oppose each other. If they understood the common connection, they might be able to adjust their attitudes toward each other and the world in general. That is not the Earth Entities fault for making the effort to connect through that route as the spiritually inclined are just better receivers than than materialists. That the downside is mis-information, the reason for that rests solely on the side of the humans, as the creators of any such deceptions.
I understand if you cannot make sense of it, but that in itself does not actually make it senseless. If your brain is wired to reject such out of hand, that speaks plainly to what is being refereed to as 'the western mindset,' although to be fair to myself, it is written in a way which any layperson should be able to get the gist of.

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Post #76

Post by brunumb »

[Replying to post 75 by William]
This implies that science is useful for such a thing when the subject is metaphysical. You are inventing such a science because it does not actually exist.
Claiming something is metaphysical is really just a strategy for hiding phenomena from critical examination. The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.
If there is knowledge relating to some particular phenomenon then it is because the phenomenon has been observed or it has been invented. If it has actually been observed, that very observation gives it the potential for investigation and examination. If it has been invented, then it becomes part of the supernatural realm which is out of reach of such examination.

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Post #77

Post by brunumb »

[Replying to post 75 by William]
Quote:
Do you praise the Eastern mindset that still values the curative powers of elephant ivory to the extent that the animals are slaughtered in great numbers just for their tusks?

What has that got to do with this thread? Nothing, of course!
Nice dodge. So, when you compare these alleged Eastern and Western mindsets, it is an argument for accepting your propositions and relevant to the thread. When the reference does not suit your mindset, it is irrelevant to the thread. Hmmm.

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Post #78

Post by brunumb »

[Replying to post 75 by William]
I understand if you cannot make sense of it, but that in itself does not actually make it senseless. If your brain is wired to reject such out of hand, that speaks plainly to what is being refereed to as 'the western mindset,' although to be fair to myself, it is written in a way which any layperson should be able to get the gist of.
Ignoring your ad hominem, it is not a question of not making sense of it. Your set of points is easily understood for what it says. It, however, is nothing more than a set of unsupported assertions and that is what makes it worthless. When you can justify your claims with suitable evidence then they may merit actual critical discussion. The burden of proof is in you to validate your claims and it is not enough to just dismiss non-acceptance of them as being due to brain wiring. Do you consider that your own brain wiring may be what allows you to accept that which should naturally be rejected?

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Post #79

Post by EarthScienceguy »

This has nothing to do with science.

Science only deals with the material. What we can experience with our senses. It has nothing to do with the inmaterial.

Now mathematics can determine the probability of what card you will turn up.

But you are talking apples and oranges here.

You are speaking philosophy not science.

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Post #80

Post by Swami »

EarthScienceguy wrote: This has nothing to do with science.

Science only deals with the material. What we can experience with our senses. It has nothing to do with the inmaterial.

Now mathematics can determine the probability of what card you will turn up.

But you are talking apples and oranges here.

You are speaking philosophy not science.
If science is truly interested in learning about the nature of consciousness and Universe, then it will be necessary to start dealing with the nonmaterial. What was the Universe before the Big Bang? Why after decades of research are we stuck dealing with "correlates" of consciousness instead of consciousness itself?

Scientists know that these two topics are real important to our knowledge so they can't let them go. Eventually they will be forced to adopt new methods and framework (panpsychism?) that are better suited to deal with these issues. The hard line reducto-materialistic scientists who refuse to adapt will become more and more marginalized.
….

A great scientist once said:
"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness."
- Max Planck (father of quantum theory).

A great mystic once said:
"It has been revealed to me that there exists an Ocean of Consciousness without limit. From It come all things of the relative plane, and in It they merge again. These waves arising from the Great Ocean merge again in the Great Ocean. I have clearly perceived all these things."
- Sri Ramakrishna (one of the great Indian gurus)

Two people of very different disciplines arriving at similar conclusions!

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