Is the Bible the inerrant Word of God?

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:40 am

For those who claim that the Bible is the "inerrant Word of God" why do you believe this?

Seems to me the arguments to support this belief are usually circular. As in "The Bible is inerrant because it is the Word of God". And evidence that the Bible is the Word of God?" Because the Bible is without error or contradiction", i.e. inerrant.

Consider this OP a challenge. Give the skeptic a better argument to convince them that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God than the usual circular argument.

Why do you believe and why should the skeptic believe that the Bible is the "inerrant Word of God"?

Break out of the circle.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:07 pm

[# 11] Rom 10:4 v Matt 5:17

Clownboat wrote:
Rom 10:4 Paul says: For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified.
Matt 5:17 Jesus says: Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets, I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Paul said that Christ is the end of the law. Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law.

I have already addressed this issue. Here is the link in case you missed it.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 36#p879336

Sorry my answers are not in order - I've posted the corresponding # in the order of your points.

JW

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:50 pm

[#5] Eph 1:7 /Rom 4:25 v Matt 6:14-15

Clownboat wrote: Eph 1:7 Paul says: In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace.
Rom 4:25 Paul says: who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
Matt 6:14-15 Jesus says: For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you, [15] but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Pauls says you need to accept the sacrifice of Jesus to be redeemed (compensate for the faults). Jesus claims that if you forgive others, God will forgive you too.

I have already addressed the issue of Mercy/forgiveness =/= Redemption. Here is the link in case you missed it.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 929#837929

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:12 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote: [#5] Eph 1:7 /Rom 4:25 v Matt 6:14-15

Clownboat wrote: Eph 1:7 Paul says: In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace.
Rom 4:25 Paul says: who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
Matt 6:14-15 Jesus says: For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you, [15] but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Pauls says you need to accept the sacrifice of Jesus to be redeemed (compensate for the faults). Jesus claims that if you forgive others, God will forgive you too.

I have already addressed the issue of Mercy/forgiveness =/= Redemption. Here is the link in case you missed it.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 929#837929

"Mercy vs. forgiveness" ? That kind of abritary distinction is just the kind of "word splitting" apologists seem to love to engage in. That and stretching the definition of words, such as "generation".

You may be making a distinction, but Jesus does not. Paul, even may agree with you, but does Jesus? Consider Jesus' principle of reciprocal forgiveness. Jesus uses the word "forgive" in the Lord's prayer, and "mercy/merciful" in the Beattitudes. Interchangable principle of reciprocity.

PinSeeker · Post by **PinSeeker** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:48 pm

Elijah John wrote: Christ was asked "what must I do to to inherit eternal life". Jesus answered, "if you would enter life, keep the commansments".

By contrast, Paul said "by works fo the Law no man is justified" or words to that effect.

Seems to me it is a challenge to reconcile the two divergent statements without resorting to verbal or theological gymnastics.

This is well worth addressing. Jesus and Paul were saying the same thing here, but in different ways:

Paul, on one hand, is more straightforward, saying that no man can possibly fulfill, or keep, the Law perfectly, thereby justifying himself; it is an impossible task for any man. Therefore, you need a Savior (Jesus).

Jesus, on the other hand, is basically saying, "If you think you can do it, give it a try. If you do, then you will justify yourself before God the Father and inherit eternal life." He knows it is an impossible for task, but his tack is, basically, "Hey, dude, give it a try and you'll see for yourself how impossible it is. Sooner or later, you will realize your need of a Savior (Me)."

That was easy. Not a contradiction.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:03 pm

PinSeeker wrote:
Elijah John wrote: Christ was asked "what must I do to to inherit eternal life". Jesus answered, "if you would enter life, keep the commansments".

By contrast, Paul said "by works fo the Law no man is justified" or words to that effect.

Seems to me it is a challenge to reconcile the two divergent statements without resorting to verbal or theological gymnastics.
This is well worth addressing. Jesus and Paul were saying the same thing here, but in different ways:

Paul, on one hand, is more straightforward, saying that no man can possibly fulfill, or keep, the Law perfectly, thereby justifying himself; it is an impossible task for any man. Therefore, you need a Savior (Jesus).

Jesus, on the other hand, is basically saying, "If you think you can do it, give it a try. If you do, then you will justify yourself before God the Father and inherit eternal life." He knows it is an impossible for task, but his tack is, basically, "Hey, dude, give it a try and you'll see for yourself how impossible it is. Sooner or later, you will realize your need of a Savior (Me)."

That was easy. Not a contradiction.

Easy? Perhaps, plausible yes. But why wouldn't the incarnate "Word of God" be at least as clear as you were here in this post?

At face value, the disiples could well have been left with the impression that the Commandments are the way to salvation, as is taught in the Torah.

And the Torah was enough, according to Jesus and his parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

"They have Moses and the Prophets, if they do not listen to them, neither will they listen to someone even risen from the dead" Ironic, given who told the parable.

And maybe that is just what Jesus too was saying. Being a good, Torah observant Jew and all, and being a good, "Tora-obseservant Jew" (keeping the commandments) was sufficient for salvation, to "inherit eternal life" or as Judaism puts it, "have a portion in the world to come".

PinSeeker · Post by **PinSeeker** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:05 pm

Elijah John wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [#5] Eph 1:7 /Rom 4:25 v Matt 6:14-15

Clownboat wrote: Eph 1:7 Paul says: In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace.
Rom 4:25 Paul says: who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
Matt 6:14-15 Jesus says: For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you, [15] but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Pauls says you need to accept the sacrifice of Jesus to be redeemed (compensate for the faults). Jesus claims that if you forgive others, God will forgive you too.

I have already addressed the issue of Mercy/forgiveness =/= Redemption. Here is the link in case you missed it.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 929#837929
"Mercy vs. forgiveness" ? That kind of abritary distinction is just the kind of "word splitting" apologists seem to love to engage in. That and stretching the definition of words, such as "generation".

You may be making a distinction, but Jesus does not. Paul, even may agree with you, but does Jesus? Consider Jesus' principle of reciprocal forgiveness. Jesus uses the word "forgive" in the Lord's prayer, and "mercy/merciful" in the Beattitudes. Interchangable principle of reciprocity.

I'm not sure I follow any of you three on this "issue."

Mercy can take many, many different forms, like giving to the poor, tending to someone while they are ill or otherwise unable to tend to himself/herself, doing a good work for someone or otherwise serving him/her in some way... any number of things. Sometimes the most merciful thing one can do for another is not to extend mercy, thereby not being an enabler, as it were. Mercy can certainly include forgiveness, for sure, in situations where forgiveness is warranted. But mercy does not necessarily include forgiveness.

Now. If we are talking about God and His granting of salvation to any man, that is certainly His mercy and compassion. Some He extends this mercy to, some He does not. That's His prerogative as Creator and God. But if He does, then forgiveness of sins is certainly part of that equation.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:11 pm

[Replying to post 35 by PinSeeker]

I think what you are referring to is "compassion" not mercy. Mercy is more akin to forgiveness.

PinSeeker · Post by **PinSeeker** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:14 pm

Elijah John wrote: At face value, the disciples could well have been left with the impression that the Commandments are the way to salvation, as is taught in the Torah.

The disciples already believed in Jesus, and they knew He was the way, the truth, and the life. I can't speak for them, but I feel sure they knew exactly what Jesus was doing and saying here. Jesus took this tack in many situations. I'm quite sure they knew.

Elijah John wrote: And maybe that is just what Jesus too was saying. Being a good, Torah observant Jew and all.

Jesus was certainly an observant Jew, for sure. But nah.

PinSeeker · Post by **PinSeeker** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:21 pm

Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 35 by PinSeeker]

I think what you are referring to is "compassion" not mercy. Mercy is more akin to forgiveness.

No, I would say mercy and compassion are more akin to each other than forgiveness is to either. After all, God does say, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, compassion on whom I have compassion." Like I said, forgiveness will always be an integral part of both mercy and compassion as it relates to God's working salvation in a man. But on a human level, forgiveness is not needed in every situation that calls for mercy or compassion.

But to me, it's really certainly not worth arguing over. It's just not a hill to die on. Peace, brother.

PinSeeker · Post by **PinSeeker** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:45 pm

Elijah John wrote:
And the Torah was enough, according to Jesus and his parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

"They have Moses and the Prophets, if they do not listen to them, neither will they listen to someone even risen from the dead" Ironic, given who told the parable.

Sure. In the parable, the rich man was calling out to Abraham (who is not Jesus, is not the Savior, but a man just like you and me). And Abraham was saying that Moses and the Prophets all wrote of Jesus. He was saying all of Scripture was about Jesus. And if they didn't believe that, neither would they believe any sign or wonder testifying to Jesus, even Jesus's resurrection from the dead. Because salvation, and thus belief in Jesus, is a work of God, not of man in and of himself.

Elijah John wrote:And maybe that is just what Jesus too was saying. Being a good, Torah observant Jew and all, and being a good, "Tora-obseservant Jew" (keeping the commandments) was sufficient for salvation, to "inherit eternal life" or as Judaism puts it, "have a portion in the world to come".

Right; it is sufficient. Or would be, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE to keep the Law perfectly. No one was able to. Not one. That's why it was necessary to make sacrifices, to sacrifice "a lamb without blemish." And in the fullness of time, God sent Himself in the form of His Son, to be THE Lamb without blemish, the Lamb of God. To be the final Sacrifice and make true atonement for sin. That's the Gospel (Good News).