Human and chimpanzee genetic similarity.

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George00
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Human and chimpanzee genetic similarity.

Post #1

Post by George00 »

One of the most common arguments I see presented by supporters of evolution is that human and chimp DNA is around 98% similar. Their similarity is said to be strong evidence in support of common ancestry. And to be fair, the similarity between the two "species" seemed to be well supported by the evidence.

Now, to the point of the thread. The following recently conducted research seems to suggest that humans aren't as genetically similar to each other as previously thought.
Genetic Variation: We're More Different Than We Thought

New research shows that at least 10 percent of genes in the human population can vary in the number of copies of DNA sequences they contain--a finding that alters current thinking that the DNA of any two humans is 99.9 percent similar in content and identity.

In the freely available Database of Genomic Variants, each bar represents a chromosome in the human genome. Blue shows the genomic distribution of copy number variations on each chromosome. Green marks the location of all annotated duplications, and red represents inversions and inversion breakpoints. (Image Credit: Junjun Zhang)


This discovery of the extent of genetic variation, by Howard Hughes Medical Institute (HHMI) international research scholar Stephen W. Scherer, and colleagues, is expected to change the way researchers think about genetic diseases and human evolution.

Genes usually occur in two copies, one inherited from each parent. Scherer and colleagues found approximately 2,900 genes--more than 10 percent of the genes in the human genome--with variations in the number of copies of specific DNA segments. These differences in copy number can influence gene activity and ultimately an organism's function.

To get a better picture of exactly how important this type of variation is for human evolution and disease, Scherer's team compared DNA from 270 people with Asian, African, or European ancestry that had been compiled in the HapMap collection and previously used to map the single nucleotide changes in the human genome. Scherer's team mapped the number of duplicated or deleted genes, which they call copy number variations (CNVs). They reported their findings in the November 23, 2006, issue of the journal Nature.

Scherer, a geneticist at the Hospital for Sick Children and the University of Toronto, and colleagues searched for CNVs using microarray-based genome scanning techniques capable of finding changes at least 1,000 bases (nucleotides) long. A base, or nucleotide, is the fundamental building block of DNA. They found an average of 70 CNVs averaging 250,000 nucleotides in size in each DNA sample. In all, the group identified 1,447 different CNVs that collectively covered about 12 percent of the human genome and six to 19 percent of any given chromosome--far more widespread than previously thought.

Not only were the changes common, they also were large. "We'd find missing pieces of DNA, some a million or so nucleotides long," Scherer said. "We used to think that if you had big changes like this, then they must be involved in disease. But we are showing that we can all have these changes."

The group found nearly 16 percent of known disease-related genes in the CNVs, including genes involved in rare genetic disorders such as DiGeorge, Angelman, Williams-Beuren, and Prader-Willi syndromes, as well as those linked with schizophrenia, cataracts, spinal muscular atrophy, and atherosclerosis.

In related research published November 23, 2006, in an advance online publication in Nature Genetics, Scherer and colleagues also compared the two human genome maps--one assembled by Celera Genomics, Inc., and one from the public Human Genome Project. They found thousands of differences.

"Other people have [compared the two human genome sequences]," Scherer said, "but they found so many differences that they mostly attributed the results to error. They couldn't believe the alterations they found might be variants between the sources of DNA being analyzed."

A lot of the differences are indeed real, and they raise a red flag, he said.

Personalized genome sequencing--for individualized diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of disease--is not far off, Scherer pointed out. "The idea [behind comparing the human genome sequences] was to come up with a good understanding of what we're going to get when we do [personalized sequencing]," he explained. "This paper helps us think about how complex it will be."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 115741.htm


So my question is....

If human beings are less genetically similar to each other than previously thought, does this imply that scientists might have been wrong in thinking humans and chimps are 98% similar?



PS- Yes, I realize the article I posted is far from the final word on the matter. I also realize that the point I am making is far from what would be required to falsify evolution or common ancestry. Nonetheless, I thought it would be an interesting subject for discussion here.

Biker

Re: Human and chimpanzee genetic similarity.

Post #21

Post by Biker »

goat wrote:
Biker wrote:
goat wrote:
Biker wrote:
goat wrote:
I'm looking at the Hebrew-Chaldee,so please explain to me how the Adam and Eve account in Genesis is obviously "allegorical", and explain the "puns"?

Biker
Adam is a generic term from Man Kind. It is related to the word adamah, which is "red clay" , which is related to the term Edom, which means blood. Eve is Hebrew for Love/life. So, God fashion mankind out of flesh and blood, and gave him love/life as a compangion.

Then, there is tge tern 'brit' being used for 'cut off', which is a reference to curcumsion.. and others besides.
Goat,
This doesn't answer the question about allegorical.Adam,the noun usually refers to mankind in the collective sense, but in Genesis2:7, it is a proper noun. Throughout Gen. 2:5-5:5 there is a constant shifting and interrelationship between the generic and the individual uses.Adam was an individual, not an allegory.

Biker
That's the pun.. so sorry if you can't see it.
Nice.

Biker

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Cathar1950
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Post #22

Post by Cathar1950 »

I think adam would be like "earthling" or even "red dirt". The pun was that the first man in the tale was called "red dirt" because he was made from red mud.
Eve was most likely Hebe a goddess. She did have other names. But they go back to two stories in Both come from the Mesopotamian stories 2000 to 3000 BCE Atrahasis and Enuma Elish used by "J" and "E" . They were later joined by"D" (Deuteronomist)
and "P"(Priestly) and reworked by "R"(Redactors) after the exile.
AB wrote:Well, the Adam and Eve story has been valid as non-fiction for 4,000 plus years. Lets see how harry potter stacks up.
So if you want to go back to the original stories you can but they are not in the bible. They are on clay tablets going back to before anything was written in the bible.
so the fiction or tales you are misreading only go back to about 2400 years as the final draft after the exile. The first only goes back to about 2800 to 2900 years written by "J". "E" would be 100 years later.
So 4000 to 6000 years outside the bible is your best bet.as the Hebrew only goes back about 2800 to 2400 years and has be worked over during that 400 to 500 years.

AB

Post #23

Post by AB »

Wyvern wrote:AB, if popularity and longevity are valid arguments for truth then that means both Hinduism and Buddhism among the major religions of the world are more true than christianity. Since both have been around longer and until the last few centuries had more adherents.

On another point if god created humans in a special manner as you seem to espouse why is there ANY similarity between us and other species?

Yet another point, If Adam and Eve were actually the first two humans, This means that these two people combined had EVERY single genetic disorder within their DNA and then they were made to inbreed for literally thousands of years. Under your scenario humanity would have died out long ago due to lack of genetic diversity. Even the authors of the bible understood the dangers of inbreeding.
I am just saying since the Adam and Eve narrative is known, it is evidence. My main point is, this account is debated. So, there is a potential it is true. Given this, it is evidence. That's all I am saying.

Let's look how ridiculous the other argument is. At some point a mama monkey and dady monkey had a baby that is human. How did the monkey parents deal with that??

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Post #24

Post by Cathar1950 »

AB wrote:
Wyvern wrote:AB, if popularity and longevity are valid arguments for truth then that means both Hinduism and Buddhism among the major religions of the world are more true than christianity. Since both have been around longer and until the last few centuries had more adherents.

On another point if god created humans in a special manner as you seem to espouse why is there ANY similarity between us and other species?

Yet another point, If Adam and Eve were actually the first two humans, This means that these two people combined had EVERY single genetic disorder within their DNA and then they were made to inbreed for literally thousands of years. Under your scenario humanity would have died out long ago due to lack of genetic diversity. Even the authors of the bible understood the dangers of inbreeding.
I am just saying since the Adam and Eve narrative is known, it is evidence. My main point is, this account is debated. So, there is a potential it is true. Given this, it is evidence. That's all I am saying.

Let's look how ridiculous the other argument is. At some point a mama monkey and dady monkey had a baby that is human. How did the monkey parents deal with that??
First remember that No monkey had a baby human. Second it is even possible that the Adam and Eve story is true and it is not evidence. It is a late known story, fable or tale that came from much older ones. There is no possiblity of being true even if it is believed literaly by billions.

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Post #25

Post by Wyvern »

I am just saying since the Adam and Eve narrative is known, it is evidence. My main point is, this account is debated. So, there is a potential it is true. Given this, it is evidence. That's all I am saying.

Going by your same logic. The Star Wars narrative is known which makes it evidence. It is debated ad nauseum in various chatrooms which means it is potentially true. See how ridiculous it is to say that simply because something exists and is talked about makes it evidentiary and possibly true.
Let's look how ridiculous the other argument is. At some point a mama monkey and dady monkey had a baby that is human. How did the monkey parents deal with that??
If this is how the scenarion is set up it would be ridiculous, however the only groups that seem to espouse the idea that you put out tend to be fundamentalist religious groups trying to defame evolution. You obviously did not read what I wrote earlier, monkeys and humans are distant cousins in that far in the past both had a common ancestor. You may have noticed if you bothered looking that the fossil record has a number of hominids which no longer exist.

AB

Post #26

Post by AB »

Cathar1950 wrote:
AB wrote:
Wyvern wrote:AB, if popularity and longevity are valid arguments for truth then that means both Hinduism and Buddhism among the major religions of the world are more true than christianity. Since both have been around longer and until the last few centuries had more adherents.

On another point if god created humans in a special manner as you seem to espouse why is there ANY similarity between us and other species?

Yet another point, If Adam and Eve were actually the first two humans, This means that these two people combined had EVERY single genetic disorder within their DNA and then they were made to inbreed for literally thousands of years. Under your scenario humanity would have died out long ago due to lack of genetic diversity. Even the authors of the bible understood the dangers of inbreeding.
I am just saying since the Adam and Eve narrative is known, it is evidence. My main point is, this account is debated. So, there is a potential it is true. Given this, it is evidence. That's all I am saying.

Let's look how ridiculous the other argument is. At some point a mama monkey and dady monkey had a baby that is human. How did the monkey parents deal with that??
First remember that No monkey had a baby human. Second it is even possible that the Adam and Eve story is true and it is not evidence. It is a late known story, fable or tale that came from much older ones. There is no possiblity of being true even if it is believed literaly by billions.
Well, we are here. And we are intelligent. I think it makes total sense we were created by God. Something like this doesn't "just happen" with a fortunate combination of atoms.

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Post #27

Post by QED »

AB wrote:Well, we are here. And we are intelligent. I think it makes total sense we were created by God. Something like this doesn't "just happen" with a fortunate combination of atoms.
No, you're right. A combination of atoms as complex as a human could not be expected through fortune alone. It takes knowledge to assemble atoms into the complex structures we call life. What I think you're overlooking is that natural systems operating on natural logical principles have the proven capacity to acquire and apply such knowledge.

Our instincts might tell us that knowledge and its application (intelligence) are only viable in living things -- but that's a view formulated over a long period of time during which the appropriate sciences were not available to show us that it is not always so.

When Genesis says that God made man in his own "image" I often wonder how many people envisage God standing upright on two legs with arms hanging down. Certainly visions like this were woven into the scriptures where "God's back parts" were visible to Moses peering through a crevice on Mount Sinai for example. The fundamental topological similarity between humans and apes would therefore seem to extend to this vision of God. Thankfully this topology has everything to do with being a Forrest dweller on a rocky planet having the mass of the Earth than it is to some prior, divine, form!

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Jose
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Post #28

Post by Jose »

AB wrote:I am just saying since the Adam and Eve narrative is known, it is evidence. My main point is, this account is debated. So, there is a potential it is true. Given this, it is evidence. That's all I am saying.
Unfortunately, this narrative is just as valid as all other narratives of Things That Happened Before Humans Existed. These narratives are called "religion." There seem to be no criteria for distinguishing which religion is right. Acceptance of a religion is based on faith, usually a result of being taught from a young age that the story is Absolute Truth and that anyone who says otherwise is at best subhuman.

Now, we could treat each of these as Historical Accounts. If we do, then we need to do as Historians do, and look for internal consistencies, inconsistencies, and other clues as to whether the story is reasonable; we have to look for alternative stories of the same events, to see if any of the authors might have been doing what The Winners often do--rewrite the events to fit their particular viewpoint. It's the alternate stories that are the problem here: there are too many that are too different to reconcile them.

Therefore, we need a different approach besides just reading the books and listening to the stories. We might, heretical though it may seem, look at some actual observations concerning the earth and its occupants, and see what those observations suggest.
AB wrote:Let's look how ridiculous the other argument is. At some point a mama monkey and dady monkey had a baby that is human. How did the monkey parents deal with that??
This is a very, very ridiculous idea, all right. But, who has ever suggested that it's realistic? Not evolutionary biologists. Biologists must, by the Rules of Science, constrain themselves to what is biologically possible, and that includes the mechanisms of genetic inheritance. One of those rules is that every species reproduces after its kind. Another is that DNA mutates, so there is genetic variation in every population, so it is possible for the "kind" to change over time as some variants are lost from the population and others become common.

It doesn't help anyone to invent a ridiculous, impossible scenario and then say that people who believe it are goofballs. They would be, but that's not the scenario we're talking about. As was shown by the star witness for the defense in the "Intelligent Design" trial, Kitzmiller vs Dover, if we use the actual biological mechanisms, evolution is not only probable, but likely. I'll add that the mechanisms make it inescapable.

But we should be discussing the OP. There are many genes that have repeated sequences that expand and contract. These are among the 10% of which they speak as being different among humans. But, they are still the same genes even if their sequences are slightly different between individuals. Chimps have the same genes, too--sometimes with different sequences than ours, sometimes with the same sequences. If we count "the genes" we find we're nearly indistinguishable. If we count the variations among individuals, and refer to differences in sequence of the same gene, we can say there are more differences. It's rather like saying that UK English and US English are different because they spell color / colour differently. If we count the words, we come out pretty much the same. If we count the spelling differences, we come out different.
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Post #29

Post by Goat »

AB wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:
AB wrote:
Wyvern wrote:AB, if popularity and longevity are valid arguments for truth then that means both Hinduism and Buddhism among the major religions of the world are more true than christianity. Since both have been around longer and until the last few centuries had more adherents.

On another point if god created humans in a special manner as you seem to espouse why is there ANY similarity between us and other species?

Yet another point, If Adam and Eve were actually the first two humans, This means that these two people combined had EVERY single genetic disorder within their DNA and then they were made to inbreed for literally thousands of years. Under your scenario humanity would have died out long ago due to lack of genetic diversity. Even the authors of the bible understood the dangers of inbreeding.
I am just saying since the Adam and Eve narrative is known, it is evidence. My main point is, this account is debated. So, there is a potential it is true. Given this, it is evidence. That's all I am saying.

Let's look how ridiculous the other argument is. At some point a mama monkey and dady monkey had a baby that is human. How did the monkey parents deal with that??
First remember that No monkey had a baby human. Second it is even possible that the Adam and Eve story is true and it is not evidence. It is a late known story, fable or tale that came from much older ones. There is no possiblity of being true even if it is believed literaly by billions.
Well, we are here. And we are intelligent. I think it makes total sense we were created by God. Something like this doesn't "just happen" with a fortunate combination of atoms.
That is the logical fallacy known as 'personal incredibility'. It has no basis except your ignorance on how it might happen.

Biker

Post #30

Post by Biker »

goat wrote:
AB wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:
AB wrote:
Wyvern wrote:AB, if popularity and longevity are valid arguments for truth then that means both Hinduism and Buddhism among the major religions of the world are more true than christianity. Since both have been around longer and until the last few centuries had more adherents.

On another point if god created humans in a special manner as you seem to espouse why is there ANY similarity between us and other species?

Yet another point, If Adam and Eve were actually the first two humans, This means that these two people combined had EVERY single genetic disorder within their DNA and then they were made to inbreed for literally thousands of years. Under your scenario humanity would have died out long ago due to lack of genetic diversity. Even the authors of the bible understood the dangers of inbreeding.
I am just saying since the Adam and Eve narrative is known, it is evidence. My main point is, this account is debated. So, there is a potential it is true. Given this, it is evidence. That's all I am saying.

Let's look how ridiculous the other argument is. At some point a mama monkey and dady monkey had a baby that is human. How did the monkey parents deal with that??
First remember that No monkey had a baby human. Second it is even possible that the Adam and Eve story is true and it is not evidence. It is a late known story, fable or tale that came from much older ones. There is no possiblity of being true even if it is believed literaly by billions.
Well, we are here. And we are intelligent. I think it makes total sense we were created by God. Something like this doesn't "just happen" with a fortunate combination of atoms.
That is the logical fallacy known as 'personal incredibility'. It has no basis except your ignorance on how it might happen.
What about the fallacy of "scientific incredibility". It has no basis except the theory put forth as "science"despite the millon year gap(s) plural in the "supposed" fossil record, that "science" has placed faith in.Faith meaning-"the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."
What has always bothered me is the absence of these DNA mutations that should be plainly evident right now today of various examples of in betweeners of ape-man.Why is there no evidence at all of this?

Biker

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