Jesus didnot resurrect himself.

[dio9]

Jesus did not resurrect himself , It was God who resurrected him.

agree , disagree?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by dio9]


I agree. Jesus conferred his spirit to God when he died saying "Into your hand I commit my spirit" and the bible explicitly states in Acts 2:32: "God raised Jesus from the dead, and we are all witnesses of this."

JW

If I recall, JWs don't believe in the trinity.
Do JWs believe that Jesus is not a god?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 15 by dio9]




[center]An incomprehensible message that Blastcat is grateful for
Part One[/center]

Well if people need to be humbled maybe so, but Jesus did not need to humbled.

"Jesus didn't NEED to be humbled."

I wonder what that means?


Maybe Jesus wasn't "humbled" however you might choose to use that word ( you have very interesting and quite unique usages for words in English ) but he was humiliated.

Maybe Jesus didn't NEED it.
Maybe Jesus just didn't have any choice in the matter.
Maybe it was like a hobby.

Maybe GOD didn't need to have Jesus humbled.
Maybe God was just having a bit of fun. It might be boring in heaven.


____________

What does the message : "Jesus did not need to humbled." really mean?
We have to guess.
____________

But maybe Jesus NEEDED to follow God's plan?

Apparently, "God" has plans .. This one included having Jesus humiliated, tortured, laughed at, ridiculed, and crucified. Some Christians believe that God's plans are a little bit "needed".

For what reason is this plan needed?


My guess: Monstrous psychopathy.

Some Christian's guess: Love.



Isn't if fun to see how other people think?

I love having to guess at people's meanings like that.. It allows me to use my imagination !!!

So thanks.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by dio9]

I agree that Jesus did not resurrect himself. The following verses are typical of what the Bible tells us:

Peter said: "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through him in your midst, just as you yourselves know---this man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put him to death. But God raised him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for him to be held in its power." (Acts 2:22-24, NASB)

I take issue with the idea that God's plan was for Jesus to suffer. It is too simplistic. I have to disagree with the writer of this letter. God didn't plan it.

Like many prophets before him Jesus suffered for his people contrary to God's desire, God desires faith and trust in Him and his prophets, faith and trust .

Moses said to the people choose life. God's will is life not death. Maybe it's what usually happens but God does not want his prophets to suffer ,let alone his own son to suffer for the people. God's predetermination it that the people believe in him and his prophets and love Him and them with all their heart and mind.

What saith the scriptures...?

Heb 5:8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

1Pe 2:21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,



Now... what's in store for you...

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Are you humble yet?


Paul

What version of the Bible are you using? Whoever translated it already had a real bad view of God. I checked this out, and examined three other versions.

(1) The Interlinear Bible, Hendrickson: "I gave my heart to seek and to investigate by wisdom concerning all which is done under the heavens. It is an evil task God has given to the sons of men, to be afflicted by."

God is not evil. He has allowed mankind to be afflicted by evil, if they so choose to ignore Him. That is what I get out of it, and that harmonizes with the rest of Ecclesiastes. Further versions also focus on what God has "given," or, allowed, and not that God is evil.

(2) The New World Translation: "And I set my heart to seek and explore wisdom in relation to everything that has been done under the heavens---the calamitous occupation that God has given to the sons of mankind in which to be occupied."

God has allowed mankind to choose to be occupied with calamity. This is the idea that anyone who loves God would occur in their minds.

(3) New American Standard Bible: "And I set my mind to seek and explore by wisdom concerning all that has been done under heaven.. It is a grievous task which God has given to the sons of men to be afflicted with."

Again, it is not God who is evil. He ALLOWS evil to affect mankind, if they so choose to act against His laws and principles.

What saith the scriptures....

NASB Pro 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.

KJV Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

KJV Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

What version of the Bible are you using? Whoever translated it already had a real bad view of God.

Are your eyes starting to open to the plan of God???



KJV Ecc 1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore7451 travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.

Word Study: H7451 רע ra‛, ָרָעה
rā‛āh: An adjective meaning bad, evil.

Concordant OT Ecc 1:13 “It is an experience of evil Elohin [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.�

KJV Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?


Time for you to stop following men's ...teaching and seek your own path to God! The narrow way!


Paul

It would be kind of you to comment on what I wrote in my post. You are merely pontificating, without considering my points.

[OnceConvinced]

What saith the scriptures...?

Heb 5:8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

1Pe 2:21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,



Now... what's in store for you...

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Are you humble yet?


Paul

Moderator Comment


Hi Pierac. As this is the Theology, Doctrine and Dogma forum, scriptures can certainly be used to back up arguments, however your post here does not seem to include any arguments or debate at all. Please give arguments and THEN use scripture to back up those arguments. Just quoting scripture alone is not enough.

Also please avoid inferences to other members not being humble as that would be considered uncivil.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 16 by onewithhim]

The view of the Hebrews, (who wrote the bible ) was Isaiah is referring to the Jewish people as a whole to be the "suffering servant".

No, you can pretty clearly see that he wasn't if you read what he wrote carefully. He said that "he" (the suffering servant) was pierced "for OUR transgressions." (Isa.53:5) Who was Isaiah referring to when he said "our" transgressions? Wouldn't it be Isaiah's AND his people, the nation of Israel, to whom he belonged---their transgressions? Isaiah was part of Israel, and those were the people whose transgressions were being paid for by the suffering servant. So how could Israel BE the suffering servant?

In addition to that, Isaiah said that the suffering servant "had done no violence and there was no deception in his mouth." (Isa.53:9) How could this suffering servant be the nation of Israel when the Scriptures are chock full of verses showing that Israel was guilty of these things?

"As a cistern keeps its waters cool, so she [Jerusalem] has kept her badness cool. Violence and despoiling are heard in her; sickness and plague are before my face constantly. Be corrected, O Jerusalem, that my soul may not turn away disgusted from you." (Jeremiah 6:7,8)

"'My holy places you have despised, and my sabbaths you [Jerusalem] have profaned....A bribe they have taken in you for the purpose of shedding blood. Interest and usury you have taken, and you violently keep making gain of your companions with defrauding, and me you have forgotten,' is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah." (Ezekiel 22:8,12)


"Tell this in the house of Jacob [Israel], and publish it in Judah, saying: This very people has come to have a stubborn and rebellious heart; they have turned aside and keep walking in their course....As a cage full of flying creatures, so their houses are full of deception. That is why they have become great and they gain riches." (Jeremiah 5:20,23,27)

"'Your dwelling is the midst of deceit; through deceit they refuse to know Me, declares the LORD....Shall I not punish them for these things?' declares the LORD. 'On a nation such as this shall I not avenge Myself?'" (Jeremiah 9:6,9)


Can't we see that Israel itself was deceitful and violent, even to each others' own neighbors? How can this be the "suffering servant" who "had done no violence, and there was no deception in his mouth"?

[For_The_Kingdom]

[Replying to post 1 by dio9]


I agree. Jesus conferred his spirit to God when he died saying "Into your hand I commit my spirit" and the bible explicitly states in Acts 2:32: "God raised Jesus from the dead, and we are all witnesses of this."

JW

But then again, Jesus did say in John 2:19 "Destroy this TEMPLE and I will raise it in 3 days". And the author tells us in verse 21, that even though the Jews thought that Jesus spoke of the "Temple" building...Jesus was actually talking about his BODY.

So again, Jesus said "I will raise it". I.

That is not to deny the explicitness of Acts 2:32...however, that is also not to deny what John 2:19 said either.

Perhaps the Resurrection was a joint effort...who knows...but lets not give fail to give Jesus his due diligence..even though I know that is a hard thing to do when dealing with the WTS.

[tigger2]

[Replying to For_The_Kingdom]

The noted trinitarian NT Greek expert Dr. Alfred Marshall writes:

“our Lord ‘was raised’ as are the dead generally (they do not ‘rise’). See 1 Corinthians ch. 15, etc.� - p. xxxvi, The Zondervan Parallel New Testament in Greek and English, 1980.

We also see at Eph. 1:17, 19, 20 -

“that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of Glory ..., according to the working of his great might which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand [cf. Ps. 110:1, 2; Acts 2:34-36; and Ro. 8:34] in the heavenly places� - RSV.

And 1 Thess. 1:9, 10 -

“how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God [John 17:3] and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus� - RSV. Also see Acts 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37; Ro. 4:24; 6:4; 8:11; 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; 2 Cor. 4:14; Col. 2:12; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 1:20; 1 Peter 1:21; etc.

Probably the only place you could find where there appears to be a statement that the Son raised himself (in contrast to the many scriptures to the contrary) would be John 2:19-22.

John 2:19, 21, 22 -

“Jesus answered them, ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’ .... But he spoke of the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised [not ‘he raised himself’] from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this.� - RSV.

Rather than ignoring this scripture, since at first glance it seems to contradict all the many others about Jesus being raised up by the Father alone, we should make every attempt to understand it in agreement with the other scriptures on the subject.

Obviously Jesus was speaking figuratively here, whereas the other scriptures concerning his being raised are to be understood literally. Figurative Bible language often leads to difficulties in interpretation.

However, Jesus was speaking figuratively of his actual body which his enemies really did destroy (“destroy this temple and ...�). Therefore, one understanding might be that Jesus was merely stating that after the Father had already returned Jesus’ life to a body (“raised� him to life) Jesus was then physically able to raise up that life-filled body: He literally was able to raise himself to his feet again; he raised his own body up from a prone position!

Even noted trinitarian NT Greek scholar A. T. Robertson tells us

“Recall [John] 2:19 where Jesus said: ‘And in three days I will raise it up.’ He did not mean that he will raise himself independently of the Father as the active agent (Rom. 8:11).� - Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. v, p. 183.

Whatever the answer to any possible confusion generated from this single figurative usage at John 2:19, we must not ignore the overwhelming number of literal statements which clearly state that the Father alone actually raised Jesus to life.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by dio9]


I agree. Jesus conferred his spirit to God when he died saying "Into your hand I commit my spirit" and the bible explicitly states in Acts 2:32: "God raised Jesus from the dead, and we are all witnesses of this."

JW

If I recall, JWs don't believe in the trinity.
Do JWs believe that Jesus is not a god?

That is correct we do not believe Jesus is almighty God and part of a trinity. Was there a reason you asked this question in relation to my comment?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 28 by JehovahsWitness]




[center]Jesus is just a guy
Part One[/center]

That is correct we do not believe Jesus is almighty God and part of a trinity. Was there a reason you asked this question in relation to my comment?

Yes, there was a reason.
It was to gather "info".

I have NO idea what people believe or don't believe until they tell me.. and even then it's very often hard to comprehend.

But basically, if I ask a question, the REASON is to get an ANSWER.

So, JW believe that Jesus is just a human being? Jesus isn't some supernatural entity of any kind?

( im asking because I don't know what you believe, you see )

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 28 by JehovahsWitness]




[center]Jesus is just a guy
Part One[/center]

That is correct we do not believe Jesus is almighty God and part of a trinity. Was there a reason you asked this question in relation to my comment?

Yes, there was a reason.
It was to gather "info".

I have NO idea what people believe or don't believe until they tell me.. and even then it's very often hard to comprehend.

But basically, if I ask a question, the REASON is to get an ANSWER.

So, JW believe that Jesus is just a human being? Jesus isn't some supernatural entity of any kind?

( im asking because I don't know what you believe, you see )

I wonder why you don't know what JWs believe. When you and I were involved in a discussion a few months ago, I told you in great detail. Do you now want to engage JehovahsWitness in a never-ending back-and-forth as well?

I think you already know that we don't believe that Jesus was JUST a human being. Innumerable Scriptures have been quoted showing that Jesus came from heaven, and that the Father sent him.