Isaac and Abraham

[Dilettante]

The terrible dilemma of Abraham has haunted countless thinkers in history, the most famous of them being probably Danish philosopher Sören Kierkegaard. But I bet everyone--that is, except those who never had a belief in the Abrahamic God--has wondered how he or she would act in a situation where God tells you to kill an innocent, perhaps your only child. This is perhaps the most difficult question for believers. I think it would be unethical of God to test people in the way he reportedly tested Abraham (and please remember Abraham didn't know it was just a test) and that anyone who killed his own son today and told the police he had just followed God's orders would rightly be put in a mental institution for life.
I, for one, could not kill an innocent person (let alone one of my children) even if God told me to. What about the rest of forum members?

[Righteous Indignation]

When I was a child, I learned in Bible school the story of Abraham and his son. I remember asking my Mother, "What would you do if God asked you to kill me". She said, "I would obey God." For two months after that I lived in fear that my Mother was actually going to kill me. I entertained the idea of being adopted by atheists, but in time forgot about it.

There is another similar story in the Bible. It’s the story of Jephthah and his daughter but it doesn’t have the happy ending.

Judges 11:30-39 (King James Version)
And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands. And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel. And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter. And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back. And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon. And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows. And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains. And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man.

[topaz]

Compare Abraham’s test with that of Job. Their tests are different but the outcome is the same – righteousness or sin. Abraham’s was a test of his love .. for son or for God. Job’s test was whether to blame God or to accept good and bad in his life.

The bottomline is
1 righteousness vs sin
2 to test our mettle

Righteousness is obedience while sin is disobedience. So if you think along this line, it would be easier to make a right decision.

Also, the point was brought up that God would not test someone beyond what he is capable of. This is scripture truth. B/c we are tested to reveal our faith or no faith in God, it is futile to put forth the same question to everyone …. killing our own child. Everyone will be tested in various ways to reveal each person’s quality of faith.

Just look at the suffering many of us face. How many of us turn from God. That is why scripture says every believer must study the bible and understand its precepts in order to run the race and win the prize. Those who turn from God, unfortunately, are not well-equipped with bible knowledge.

Did God cause isaac to be actually slaughtered ?
Did God cause job to suffer without end ?
Why turn from Father for any reason ? If you fail the test, don’t expect laughter and joy.

A question was asked … how did abraham know that God wants a sacrifice in isaac.

Ge 22:1-2 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. 2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

God spoke to abraham. The verse didn’t say that God appeared to abraham. To my mind, God spoke as a voice from heaven or in the mind of abraham. If you’re close to God, you know Him and you’ll know when He conveys His thoughts to you.

[pyrite]

I think it would be unethical of God to test people in the way he reportedly tested Abraham

i dont think ethics are in question when it comes to God's behaviour, he doesnt have to answer to our opinions on ethics/morality.
it seems clear that he, knowing that the outcome would bring no harm to Isaac, used this situation to bring abraham into a position of faith and submission. do you actually see this as an unethical method? (im not taking a stab, im serious)

[topaz]

I think it would be unethical of God to test people in the way he reportedly tested Abraham

I agree with pyrite.

Unless one is higher than God then it makes sense to say … ‘ I think … unethical of God ..’. Fact is, we are His creatures and are subject to Him in all things.

To make the comment above is to pass judgment on an act of God. Wise or not ?

[McCulloch]

I think it would be unethical of God to test people in the way he reportedly tested Abraham

I agree with pyrite.

Unless one is higher than God then it makes sense to say … ‘ I think … unethical of God ..’. Fact is, we are His creatures and are subject to Him in all things.

To make the comment above is to pass judgment on an act of God. Wise or not ?

That's one answer to the Euthyphro dilemma. But that makes it meaningless to say, "See how {good|just|loving|forgiving|righteous|moral} God is." because God becomes the arbitrary definition of those attributes.

[Goat]

I think it would be unethical of God to test people in the way he reportedly tested Abraham

I agree with pyrite.

Unless one is higher than God then it makes sense to say … ‘ I think … unethical of God ..’. Fact is, we are His creatures and are subject to Him in all things.

To make the comment above is to pass judgment on an act of God. Wise or not ?

Of course it is wise. Remember, man was made in the image of God,and have partaken of the knowledge of good and evil.

God has given use the ability to reason for ourselves, and in fact, we SHOULD Judge god. It is our duty to apply the lessons we have learned.

[pyrite]

I think it would be unethical of God to test people in the way he reportedly tested Abraham

I agree with pyrite.

Unless one is higher than God then it makes sense to say … ‘ I think … unethical of God ..’. Fact is, we are His creatures and are subject to Him in all things.

To make the comment above is to pass judgment on an act of God. Wise or not ?

Of course it is wise. Remember, man was made in the image of God,and have partaken of the knowledge of good and evil.

God has given use the ability to reason for ourselves, and in fact, we SHOULD Judge god. It is our duty to apply the lessons we have learned.

the fact that we've partaken in the knowledge of good and evil doesnt give us the right to judge God, nor each other.. we can reason with each other about God and each other, we can make intellectual judgments about God and each other, but that is not the same as judging him. if God is God, that's clearly not our place. to assume this we have put ourselves on level with him, which is surely dangerous ground

[Goat]

I think it would be unethical of God to test people in the way he reportedly tested Abraham

I agree with pyrite.

Unless one is higher than God then it makes sense to say … ‘ I think … unethical of God ..’. Fact is, we are His creatures and are subject to Him in all things.

To make the comment above is to pass judgment on an act of God. Wise or not ?

Of course it is wise. Remember, man was made in the image of God,and have partaken of the knowledge of good and evil.

God has given use the ability to reason for ourselves, and in fact, we SHOULD Judge god. It is our duty to apply the lessons we have learned.

the fact that we've partaken in the knowledge of good and evil doesnt give us the right to judge God, nor each other.. we can reason with each other about God and each other, we can make intellectual judgments about God and each other, but that is not the same as judging him. if God is God, that's clearly not our place. to assume this we have put ourselves on level with him, which is surely dangerous ground

Sure it does. When we grow up, we can judge weather or not the actions of our parents are good, right? Same thing for the claimed actions of God.

Of course, our conclusions might be 'That would be immoral, therefore God didn't do that', but that is a different matter. I would insist any of my children apply what I have taught them. I excpet God would be good enough to be able to do the same.

[pyrite]

I think it would be unethical of God to test people in the way he reportedly tested Abraham

I agree with pyrite.

Unless one is higher than God then it makes sense to say … ‘ I think … unethical of God ..’. Fact is, we are His creatures and are subject to Him in all things.

To make the comment above is to pass judgment on an act of God. Wise or not ?

Of course it is wise. Remember, man was made in the image of God,and have partaken of the knowledge of good and evil.

God has given use the ability to reason for ourselves, and in fact, we SHOULD Judge god. It is our duty to apply the lessons we have learned.

the fact that we've partaken in the knowledge of good and evil doesnt give us the right to judge God, nor each other.. we can reason with each other about God and each other, we can make intellectual judgments about God and each other, but that is not the same as judging him. if God is God, that's clearly not our place. to assume this we have put ourselves on level with him, which is surely dangerous ground

Sure it does. When we grow up, we can judge weather or not the actions of our parents are good, right? Same thing for the claimed actions of God.

Of course, our conclusions might be 'That would be immoral, therefore God didn't do that', but that is a different matter. I would insist any of my children apply what I have taught them. I excpet God would be good enough to be able to do the same.

I fail to see your reasoning. Our in-build moral and ethical code clearly finds its source in a creator, so how can we judge him as immoral? He is the standard of morality from which our own has come. His moral stance does not require our validation

[Righteous Indignation]

Our in-build moral and ethical code clearly finds its source in a creator, so how can we judge him as immoral? He is the standard of morality from which our own has come. His moral stance does not require our validation

I’m a little confused here. If Christians can not determine whether God is moral or immoral; why do they obey him? It sounds like they are saying, "Whether God is good or evil is irrelevant; we obey God because we fear him." Am I understanding this correctly?