Do nonbelievers or non-theists have faith?

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KingandPriest
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Do nonbelievers or non-theists have faith?

Post #1

Post by KingandPriest »

In a separate thread, I suggested the following:
KingandPriest wrote:This is why most apologist say you need more faith to be an atheist than to believe in God
To this, an agnostic replied:
Blastcat wrote:Yeah, I heard that silly slander before.. I read a book with a title like that, too.
That book was a HUGE disappointment, by the way.

Frank isn't very respected by outsiders to the faith.
Even the title of the book is messed up.

How many atheists have you EVER heard saying that they have "faith in their atheism"?

Would that be many or few?
To this I now ask:

1. Does a atheist have to proclaim faith in atheism to have faith?
2. Can a nonbeliever or non-theist have faith in anything at all?
3. When a person places money into a bank account, and then goes to a store to spend some of this money, is the action of using a debit card, check card or check book an act of faith?
4. Are generally accepted scientific theories statements of faith?

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Re: Do nonbelievers or non-theists have faith?

Post #41

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 40 by KingandPriest]
It does not say matter cannot be created.
Matter IS energy. We've known that since at least Einstein, if I recall correctly.
Where did the initial energy of the universe come from?
Why do you think this is a valid question to ask?
The bible says the energy came from God. Science says it has always been there even before our universe formed. This is just like what is said about God. God is eternal.
This would then make God and the universe one and the same.
Do you think the law of conservation of energy supports the existence of God?
*Looks at usergroups to the left* Still a member of the atheist group.
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Re: Do nonbelievers or non-theists have faith?

Post #42

Post by KingandPriest »

[Replying to post 41 by rikuoamero]
rikuoamero wrote:Matter IS energy. We've known that since at least Einstein, if I recall correctly.
Here is an interesting, long, and well written clarification on the misnomer that matter is energy.

The question is what size object are you describing when you use the word matter. Context is important.

https://profmattstrassler.com/articles- ... dichotomy/
It is common that, when reading about the universe or about particle physics, one will come across a phrase that somehow refers to “matter and energy�, as though they are opposites, or partners, or two sides of a coin, or the two classes out of which everything is made. This comes up in many contexts. Sometimes one sees poetic language describing the Big Bang as the creation of all the “matter and energy� in the universe. One reads of “matter and anti-matter annihilating into `pure’ energy.� And of course two of the great mysteries of astronomy are “dark matter� and “dark energy�.

As a scientist and science writer, this phraseology makes me cringe a bit, not because it is deeply wrong, but because such loose talk is misleading to non-scientists. It doesn’t matter much for physicists; these poetic phrases are just referring to something sharply defined in the math or in experiments, and the ambiguous wording is shorthand for longer, unambiguous phrases.
...

Summing Up

This article is long, but I hope it is illuminating and informative for those of you who want details. Let me give you a summary of the lessons it contains:

Matter and Energy really aren’t in the same class and shouldn’t be paired in one’s mind.
Matter, in fact, is an ambiguous term; there are several different definitions used in both scientific literature and in public discourse. Each definition selects a certain subset of the particles of nature, for different reasons. Consumer beware! Matter is always some kind of stuff, but which stuff depends on context.
Energy is not ambiguous (not within physics, anyway). But energy is not itself stuff; it is something that all stuff has.
The term Dark Energy confuses the issue, since it isn’t (just) energy after all. It also really isn’t stuff; certain kinds of stuff can be responsible for its presence, though we don’t know the details.
Photons should not be called `energy’, or `pure energy’, or anything similar. All particles are ripples in fields and have energy; photons are not special in this regard. Photons are stuff; energy is not.
The stuff of the universe is all made from fields (the basic ingredients of the universe) and their particles. At least this is the post-1973 viewpoint.
What’s the Matter (and the Energy)?

First, let’s define (or fail to define) our terms.

The word Matter. “Matter� as a term is terribly ambiguous; there isn’t a universal definition that is context-independent. There are at least three possible definitions that are used in various places:

  • “Matterâ€� can refer to atoms, the basic building blocks of what we think of as “materialâ€�: tables, air, rocks, skin, orange juice — and by extension, to the particles out of which atoms are made, including electrons and the protons and neutrons that make up the nucleus of an atom.

    OR it can refer to what are sometimes called the elementary “matter particles� of nature: electrons, muons, taus, the three types of neutrinos, the six types of quarks — all of the types of particles which are not the force particles (the photon, gluons, graviton and the W and Z particles.) Read here about the known apparently-elementary particles of nature. [The Higgs particle, by the way, doesn’t neatly fit into the classification of particles as matter particles and force particles, which was somewhat artificial to start with; I have a whole section about this classification below.]

    OR it can refer to classes of particles that are found out there, in the wider universe, and that on average move much more slowly than the speed of light.
    With any of these definitions, electrons are matter (although with the third definition they were not matter very early in the universe’s history, when it was much hotter than it is today.) With the second definition, muons are matter too, and so are neutrinos, even though they aren’t constituents of ordinary material. With the third definition, some neutrinos may or may not be matter, and dark matter is definitely matter, even if it turns out to be made from a new type of force particle. I’m really sorry this is so confusing, but you’ve no choice but to be aware of these different usages if you want to know what “matter� means in different people’s books and articles.


Now, what about the word Energy. Fortunately, energy (as physicists use it) is a well-defined concept that everyone in physics agrees on. Unfortunately, the word in English has so many meanings that it is very easy to become confused about what physicists mean by it. I’ve briefly describe the various forms of energy that arise in physics in more detail in an article on mass and energy. But for the moment, suffice it to say that energy is not itself an object. An atom is an object; energy is not. Energy is something which objects can have, and groups of objects can have — a property of objects that characterizes their behavior and their relationships to one another. [Though it should be noted that different observers will assign different amounts of energy to a given object — a tricky point that is illustrated carefully in the above-mentioned article on mass and energy.] And for this article, all we really need to know is that particles moving on their own through space can have two types of energy: mass-energy (i.e., E= mc2 type of energy, which does not depend on whether and how a particle moves) and motion-energy (energy that is zero if a particle is stationary and becomes larger as a particle moves faster).

Annihilation of Particles and Antiparticles Isn’t Matter Turning Into Energy

Let’s first examine the notion that “matter and anti-matter annihilate to pure energy.� This, simply put, isn’t true, for several reasons.

In the green paragraphs above, I gave you three different common definitions of “matter.� In the context of annihilation of particles and anti-particles, speakers may either be referring to the first definition or the second. Here I want to discuss the annihilation of electrons and anti-electrons (or “positrons�), or the annihilation of muons and anti-muons. I’ve described this in detail in an article on Particle/Anti-Particle Annihilation. You’ll need it to understand what I say next, so I’m going to assume that you have read it. Once you’ve done that, you’re ready to try to understand where the (false) notion that matter and antimatter annihilate into pure energy comes from.

What is meant by “pure energy�? This is almost always used in reference to photons, commonly in the context of an electron and a positron (or some other massive particle and anti-particle) annihilating to make two photons (recall the antiparticle of a photon is also a photon.) But it’s a terrible thing to do. Energy is something that photons have; it is not what photons are. [I have height and weight; that does not mean I am height and weight.]

The term “pure energy� is a mix of poetry, shorthand and garbage. Since photons have no mass, they have no mass-energy, and that means their energy is “purely motion-energy�. But that does not mean the same thing, either in physics or intuitively to the non-expert, as saying photons are “pure energy�. Photons are particles just as electrons are particles; they both are ripples in a corresponding field, and they both have energy. The electron and positron that annihilated had energy too — the same amount of energy as the photons to which they annihilate, in fact, since energy is conserved (i.e. the total amount does not change during the annihilation process.) (See Figure 3 of the particle/anti-particle annihilation article.

Moreover (see Figures 1 and 2 of the particle/anti-particle annihilation article), the process muon + anti-muon → two photons is on exactly the same footing and occurs with almost exactly the same probability as the process muon + anti-muon → electron + positron — which is matter and anti-matter annihilating into another type of matter and anti-matter. So no matter how you want to express this, it is certainly not true that matter and anti-matter always annihilate into anything you might even loosely call `energy’; there are other possibilities.

For these reasons I don’t use the “matter and energy� language on this website when speaking about annihilation. I just call this type of process what it is:

particle 1 + anti-particle 1 → particle 2 + anti-particle 2
With this plain-spoken terminology it is clear why a muon and anti-muon annihilating to two photons, or to an electron and a positron, or to a neutrino and an anti-neutrino, are all on the same footing. They are all the same class of process. And we need not make distinctions that don’t really exist and that obscure the universality of particle/anti-particle annihilation.

Not Everything is Matter or Energy, By a Long Shot

Why do people sometimes talk about “matter and energy� as though everything is either matter or energy? I don’t know the context in which this expression was invented. Maybe one of my readers knows? Language reflects history, and often reacts slowly to new information. Part of the problem is that enormous changes in physicists’ conception of the world and its ingredients occurred between 1900 and 1980. This has mostly stopped for now; it’s been remarkably stable throughout my career.

[String theorists might argue with what I’ve just said, pointing out that their great breakthroughs occurred during the 1980s and 1990s. That’s true, but since string theory hasn’t yet established itself as reality through experimental verification, one cannot say that it has yet been incorporated into our conception of the world.]

Our current conception of the physical world is shaped by a wide variety of experiments and discoveries that occurred during the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. But previous ways of thinking and talking about particle physics partially stuck around even as late as the 1980s and 1990s, while I was being trained as a young scientist. This isn’t surprising; it takes a while for people who grew up with an older vision to come around to a new prevailing point of view, and some never do. And it also takes a while for a newer version to come into sharp focus, and for little niggling problems with it to be resolved.

Today, if one wants to talk about the world in the context of our modern viewpoint, one can speak first and foremost of the “fields and their particles.� It is the fields that are the basic ingredients of the world, in today’s widely dominant paradigm. We view fields as more fundamental than particles because you can’t have an elementary particle without a field, but you can have a field without any particles. [I still owe you a proper article about fields and particles; it’s high on the list of needed contributions to this website.] However, it happens that every known field has a known particle, except possibly the Higgs field (whose particle is not yet certain to exist, though [as of the time of writing, spring 2012] there are significant experimental hints.)

What do “fields and particles� have to do with “matter and energy�? Not much. Some fields and particles are what you would call “matter�, but which ones are matter, and which ones aren’t, depends on which definition of “matter� you are using. Meanwhile, all fields and particles can have energy; but none of them are energy.

Matter Particles and Force Particles — Well…

On this website, I’ve divided the known particles up into “matter particles� and “force particles�. I wasn’t entirely happy doing this, because it’s a bit arbitrary. This division works for now; the force particles and their anti-particles are associated with the four forces of nature that we know so far, and the matter particles and their anti-particles are all of the others. And there are many situations in which this division is convenient. But at the Large Hadron Collider [LHC] we could easily discover particles that don’t fit into this categorization; even the Higgs particle poses a bit of a problem, because it arguably is in neither class.

There’s an alternate (but very different) division that makes sense: what I called matter particles all happen to be fermions, and what I called force particles all happen to be bosons. But this could change too with new discoveries.

What this really comes down to is that all the particles of nature are simply particles, some of which are each other’s anti-particles, and there isn’t a unique way to divide them up into classes . The reason I used “matter� and “force� is that this is a little less abstract-sounding than “fermions� and “bosons� — but I may come to regret my choice, because we might discover particles at the LHC, or elsewhere, that break this distinction down.

Matter and Energy in the Universe

Another place we encounter words of this type is in the history and properties of the cosmos as a whole. We read about matter, radiation, dark matter, and dark energy. The use of the words by cosmologists is quite different from what you might expect — and it actually involves two or three different meanings, and depends strongly on context.

Matter vs. Anti-Matter: when you hear people talk this way, they’re talking about the first definition within the green paragraphs above. They are typically referring to the imbalance of matter over anti-matter in our universe — the fact that the particles that make up ordinary material (electrons, protons and neutrons in particular) are much more abundant than any of their anti-particles.

Matter vs. Radiation: if you hear this distinction, you’re dealing with the third definition of `matter’. The universe has a temperature; it was very hot early on and has been gradually cooling, now at 2.7 Celsius-degrees above absolute zero. If you have a gas (or plasma) of particles at a given temperature T, and you measure the energies of these particles, you will find that the average motion-energy per particle is given by k T, where k is Boltzmann‘s famous constant. Now matter, in this context, is any particle whose mass-energy mc2 is large compared to this average motion energy kT; such particles will have velocity much slower than the speed of light. And radiation is any particle whose mass-energy is small compared to kT, and is consequently moving close to the speed of light.

Notice what this means. In this context, what is matter, and what is not, is temperature-dependent and therefore time-dependent! Early in the universe, when the temperature was trillions of degrees and even hotter, the electron was what cosmologists consider radiation. Today, with the universe much cooler, the electron is in the category of matter. In the present universe at least two of the three types of neutrinos are matter, and maybe all three, by this definition; but all the neutrinos were radiation early in the universe. Photons have always been and will always be radiation, since they are massless.

What is Dark Matter? We can tell from studying the motions of stars and other techniques that most of the mass of a galaxy comes from something that doesn’t shine, and lots of hard work has been done to prove that known particles behaving in ordinary ways cannot be responsible. To explain this effect, various speculations have been proposed, and many have been shown (through observation of how galaxies look and behave, typically) to be wrong. Of the survivors, one of the leading contenders is that dark matter is made from heavy particles of an unknown type. But we don’t know much more than that as yet. Experiments may soon bring us new insights, though this is not guaranteed. [Note also there may be not be any meaning to dark anti-matter; the particles of dark matter, like photons and Z particles, may well be their own anti-particles.]

And Dark Energy? It was recently discovered that the universe is expanding faster and faster, not slower and slower as was the case when it was younger. What is presumably responsible is called “dark energy�, but unfortunately, it’s actually not energy. As my colleague Sean Carroll is fond of saying, it is tension, not energy — a combination of pressure and energy density. So why do people call it “energy�? Part of it is public relations. Dark energy sounds cool; dark tension sounds weird, as does any other word you can think of that is vaguely appropriate. At some level this is harmless. Scientists know exactly what is being referred to, so this terminology causes no problem on the technical side; most of the public doesn’t care exactly what is being referred to, so arguably there’s no big problem on the non-technical side. But if you really want to know what’s going on, it’s important to know that dark-energy isn’t a dark form of energy, but something more subtle. Moreover, like energy, dark-energy isn’t an object or set of objects, but a property that fields, or combinations of fields, or space-time itself can have. We don’t yet know what is responsible for the dark-energy whose presence we infer from the accelerating universe. And it may be quite a while before we do.

You might conclude from this article that modern physicists and their relatives have not been very inventive, creative, or careful with language.

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Re: Do nonbelievers or non-theists have faith?

Post #43

Post by Divine Insight »

KingandPriest wrote: Can you provide evidence to support your claim that the biblical account could not possibly have happened?
Yes. I can provide both logical and physical evidence. However, the logical evidence alone should be more than sufficient.

By the way, I need to correct your misunderstanding. I never claimed that the biblical account could not have possibly happened. That's a totally different question from what I'm addressing. My claim is that the Biblical account cannot be TRUE as written because it requires that the God himself be a self-contradictory paradox, both in his character, as well as in his supposed abilities. Whether the stories in the Bible could have actually happened or not is totally irrelevant. I suppose they could if you allow for a deceitful, untrustworthy and potentially inept God character. But that violates what the God of the Bible is supposed to be like.

In fact, I often say that Zeus could have actually been a real God because Zeus does not represent a paradox or logical contradiction of any kind that I am aware of. No one ever claimed that Zeus represents the epitome of morality, or that he could even be trusted. In fact, I don't even think that it was ever claimed that Zeus is necessarily omnipotent.

So a God like Zeus would be far more difficult to disprove via a proof by contradiction which his how the Biblical God can easily be proven to be false many times over.
KingandPriest wrote: Is your evidence based on other theories or on substantiated fact. There is a difference.
My evidence that the Bible cannot be true is based on pure logic, (and of course on the information given about this God in the Bible). I disprove the Biblical God using the same method that mathematicians disprove the existence of a rational solution to the square root of 2. If it existed it would require a logical contradiction. It's a "Proof by Contradiction".

I can disprove the existence Biblical God many times over using this same method of "Proof by Contradiction". And these proofs require only the Bible. No other information is required, other than an understanding of concepts such as "omnipotence, omniscience, trustworthiness, etc."

Of course, I can add even more proofs that the Bible is false if we allow the introduction of scientific knowledge of the real world. But that's actually overkill that isn't even required to see that the Biblical God is necessarily false.

I don't have time to respond to the rest of your post right now, but I might be back later to address the other concerns you've expressed.
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Re: Do nonbelievers or non-theists have faith?

Post #44

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 42 by KingandPriest]

It may please you somewhat to read me saying this: I can't refute what you said. This doesn't mean that I accept everything that's in post 42, but that what is said there is beyond my knowledge of physics.
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Re: Do nonbelievers or non-theists have faith?

Post #45

Post by Divine Insight »

rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 42 by KingandPriest]

It may please you somewhat to read me saying this: I can't refute what you said. This doesn't mean that I accept everything that's in post 42, but that what is said there is beyond my knowledge of physics.
It really wouldn't matter anyway because KingandPriest is working on a false assumption to begin with.

KingandPriest is working on the assumption that if a person rejects theism then they necessarily must worship science as their worldview. But that's a false dichotomy to begin with.

For example, I reject all of the Abrahamic religions as being clearly self-contradictory and utterly absurd on many levels. No scientific knowledge is even required to reject all of the Abrahamic religions.

KingandPriest seems to be working on the idea that non-theists must be worshiping science and that this is the reason they reject Hebrew Mythology.

Besides, look at his argument, he's trying to claim that science cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Bible's account of Genesis is necessarily wrong. So what? :-k

That's got to be one of the least of the problems associated with the Biblical fables in any case. Even if science ended up proving that the earth was necessarily formed FIRST that would hardly vindicate the Bible.

In fact, the theory of Nebular Formation could itself end up having the earth forming as a rocky orb "before" the Sun actually ignites as a star. So what? Should we then run off through the streets proclaiming that the Bible has been vindicated?

Hardly.

KingandPriest seems to be arguing from the perspective that religion (in this case Christianity in particular) is at war with science, and if he can simply demonstrate that science doesn't necessarily conflict with the Bible then he will have "settled" that war in favor of Christianity.

This no doubt stems from the fact that he has obviously heard many atheists argue that science refutes Genesis. Actually I personally believe it does in the big picture anyway. But some atheists probably argued that you must have sunlight before you can have plants growing and so they argue that the Sun had to be burning before life could exist on planet earth. That's no doubt TRUE!

But for some reason KingandPriest seems to now think that if he can bring a question into the mix of whether the earth might have been formed "first", (even as a hot molten rock, this will somehow vindicate the Genesis account of the earth being created before the sun. That's hardly a sound argument in any case.

But the bottom line is that all atheists don't reject the Hebrew Bible based entirely on scientific technicalities.

Let's go back to the questions of the OP again and see how they are not dependent on placing "faith" in science, or anything else.
KingandPriest wrote: To this I now ask:

1. Does a atheist have to proclaim faith in atheism to have faith?
No, absolutely not. Atheism is not a belief anymore than choosing not to play golf is a belief. No faith is required to choose to not play golf.
KingandPriest wrote: 2. Can a nonbeliever or non-theist have faith in anything at all?
For an atheist the term "faith" is most likely a synonym for "trust'. And so in that context atheists can trust a lot of knowledge and their life's experience. They are even aware that this trust can ultimately turn out to be misplaced.

That hardly compares with the kind of obsessive unrealistic "faith" a theists place in the existence of an invisible God for which there is absolutely no evidence for at all (especially when we're talking about one that is described in detail in a collection of highly self-contradictory myths)
KingandPriest wrote: 3. When a person places money into a bank account, and then goes to a store to spend some of this money, is the action of using a debit card, check card or check book an act of faith?
Again, an atheist would most likely use the word "trust" and even then they would most likely be very open to the possibility that this trust could have been misplaced. "Expectation" that a system will hopefully work well is a better description. And if you've ever been stung by a banking error you would be quickly awakened to the fact that mistakes do sometimes occur.
KingandPriest wrote: 4. Are generally accepted scientific theories statements of faith?
Again, the correct term here is TRUST, and certainly not "Blind faith" like theists rely upon.

Scientists TRUST in generally accepted theories because they realize that every scientist in the community would love nothing more than to disprove the theory! Therefore, theories that have been peer-reviewed for many years are very trustworthy. Let's not forget that there is also tons of actual evidence to support generally accepted theories as well.

For example, you can argue against Einstein's Theory of Special Relativity until you are blue in the face, that's not going to change the fact that time dilation is real and has actually been measured many times over by many independent scientists who would love nothing more than to prove Relativity wrong.

If you can demonstrate that a generally accepted scientific theory is actually wrong, then you will the Nobel Prize and become recognized as one of the smartest people around.

So scientists are highly motivated to prove scientific theories wrong. They are hardly working in a conspiracy to support lame theories that they could easily disprove or demonstrate reasons to question them.

Every scientist's greatest dream is to be recognized for finding a flaw, an improvement, or an alternative explanation to an existing theory.

So even scientists don't place the kind of "faith" in their theories that theists place in their invisible Gods.

To the contrary, scientists are the greatest "skeptics" of all. And the truly decent scientists would even love to have their own theories blown out of the water if this results in revealing a greater underlying truth.

Scientists are interested in discovering truth, not in perpetuation myths.

So this idea that secular scientists merely have "a theistic faith" in scientific theories is clearly a misguided notion from the get go.
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Re: Do nonbelievers or non-theists have faith?

Post #46

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 45 by Divine Insight]



[center]Accusing KingandPriest of making a false dichotomy.
Part one.
[/center]

Divine Insight wrote:
It really wouldn't matter anyway because KingandPriest is working on a false assumption to begin with.

KingandPriest is working on the assumption that if a person rejects theism then they necessarily must worship science as their worldview. But that's a false dichotomy to begin with.
I think it would be great at this point if we knew if KingandPriest agrees that he is working on the assumption that if a person rejects theism then they necessarily must worship science as their worldview.

What about it, KingandPriest ?
We don't want to accuse you of fabricating a false dichotomy is you aren't really making one.



:)

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Re: Do nonbelievers or non-theists have faith?

Post #47

Post by Zzyzx »

.
[Replying to post 45 by Divine Insight]
Divine Insight wrote: Atheism is not a belief anymore than choosing not to play golf is a belief. No faith is required to choose to not play golf.
THAT is worthy of its own thread -- see General Chat http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 350#824350

After reading that statement it would seem to require willful ignorance to continue claiming that Atheism is a belief, a faith (or require faith), or a worldview.
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Re: Do nonbelievers or non-theists have faith?

Post #48

Post by McCulloch »

KingandPriest wrote:The bible says the energy came from God.
Just so that we are all clear, where in the Bible is this claim made?
KingandPriest wrote:Science says it has always been there even before our universe formed.
Just so that we are also clear on this point, which scientists make this claim? My understanding of modern cosmology is that nothing can be known about before the Big Bang, and perhaps it is meaningless to even speak of the concept of time before it.
KingandPriest wrote:This is just like what is said about God. God is eternal.

Do you think the law of conservation of energy supports the existence of God?
The Law of Conservation of Energy supports the idea that energy is eternal. It can neither be created nor destroyed. Thus it must have existed for all time and will continue to exist for all time.
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Re: Do nonbelievers or non-theists have faith?

Post #49

Post by Divine Insight »

McCulloch wrote:
KingandPriest wrote:This is just like what is said about God. God is eternal.

Do you think the law of conservation of energy supports the existence of God?
The Law of Conservation of Energy supports the idea that energy is eternal. It can neither be created nor destroyed. Thus it must have existed for all time and will continue to exist for all time.
A huge problem here is that there truly isn't even a meaningful definition for the term "energy" in physics, short of perhaps an ability to "do work".

We can't say for certain that 'energy' preexisted the universe. We also can't even say for certain that energy cannot be created nor destroyed. That scientific definition in science speaks only to the situation within the universe. There are currently cosmological hypotheses that actually suggest that "energy" is indeed created when "gravity" is created. It's very similar to the matter/antimatter situation. Gravity may offset energy. If so, then energy can be created or destroyed as long an equivalent amount of gravity is created or destroyed along with it.
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Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
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Bust Nak
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Re: Do nonbelievers or non-theists have faith?

Post #50

Post by Bust Nak »

KingandPriest wrote: So calling something faith or confidence is subjective. What I call faith you may call confidence because of a difference of opinion on the supporting evidence available.
Lets use a narrower definition for evidence shall we? How about we stick to evidence of the empirical kind?
Seismic waves do not provide evidence of the composition of a material. Only the approximate size and density.
That's more than good enough to demonstrate the composition of the Earth's core.
]We don't know the composition beyond a reasonable doubt. We think we know and have a pretty good idea. It is possible that the core is composed of a mix of new elements yet to be discovered.
Sure.
...2. "solar systems forms from inside out" (Wouldn't you call this a rule about which has to form first?)
It is a rule, it just doesn't mean a planet has to be younger than its sun.
3. "if indeed the sun and the Earth formed form the same dust cloud, then the sun has to be older"

Do you see where the assumption came out of nowhere.
No, I don't. It is backed by empirical evidence.
Why is this assumption more plausible than one which includes an older earth? Why is a theory which includes the earth forming shortly before the sun automatically rejected?
That's where empirical evidence comes in.
Models are not empirical evidence...
What we see matches the model, that give us confidence that the model is accurate, that is enough to demonstrate that the sun is older than the Earth.
If I build a model of building that is supposed to depict a 1000 meter tall building, is the model empirical evidence that the building has already been built?
That's not what is meant by a model. What are the predictions being made here?
Why accept one model simulation, when others could generate a similar result?
No reason. I have a question: from what you said here, it seems you understood that by model I meant simulation. Why did you bring up a model building above if you knew what "model" means?
Are you familiar with how margin of error works?
Yes.
The empirical evidence of dating earths oldest rocks and meteorites affirm that my statement above is possible.
That's where other evidence comes in, you cannot cherry pick in science. Everything has to line up. Looking at oldest rocks says it might be possible, but we can rule it out by looking at everything together.
The only way it is not possible, is if you accept the assumption that the sun had to form first.
Again, not an assumption. Or at worse, not a mere assumption but one backed by empirical evidence.
What is the basis for belief that the sun forms first? Is the basis empirical evidence or conjecture?
Empirical evidence.
So accepting a claim as true is ok as long as it is done on a tentative basis?

If a cosmologists claims the sun must have formed before the Earth with no empirical evidence, it is ok to accept the claim on a tentative basis until a better theory comes along with empirical evidence to back it up.
No. The point was, it's still tentatively true AFTER empirical evidence presented to back it up.
Why was this claim rejected in favor of the new claim (sun older than earth) when this new claim did not have any empirical evidence to support it. Was this just based on personal preference?
Loaded question cannot be answered. The new claim is accepted because it had empirical evidence to support it.

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