The Evidence War

[chrispalasz]

Please take the time to read this entire post.

This thread is created for posts that:

1. Show evidence supporting the view that Christianity holds the Truth about God and humanity.

2. Show evidence supporting the view that Christianity does not hold the truth about God and humanity.

Evidence posted must be according to one of the two definitions, or it will not be deemed sufficient as evidence. All debate arising from posted evidence should be addressed using counter-evidence [counter-evidence defined as evidence that goes against or attempts to falsify or discredit evidence already posted].

Evidence, on this thread, is defined as follows:

1. Of or having to do with a material object that demonstrates, makes clear, or ascertains the truth of the very fact or point in issue;

2. A matter of record, or writing, or by the testimony of witnesses, enabling one to pronounce with certainty; concerning the truth of any matter in dispute.

[nikolayevich]

This thread may be a bit too broad as stated. This entire forum section is already debating "for and against Christianity", presenting arguments to affirm or deny it as truth. Each thread in this section should be supplemental to this end, rather than a restating of it. Is there something more specific you are wanting to get into?

Regards.

[chrispalasz]

To be honest, no. When creating this, I had in mind the interest to have a thread where everyone posted evidence rather than arguing with fancy words, speculation, and opinion.

I feel that this thread would filter a lot of philisophical arguments out and get to the heart of the issue that everyone is interested in: the facts.

Discussing this topic (which you're right, is already being discussed) would be discussed in a different manner in this forum and would support a new focus.

I do not disagree that this post may be broad, but I definately do not think it is more broad than the discussion that is being allowed that is under the Creationism vs Evolution topic and is titled: "Why do you believe in Creationism or Evolution?" In fact, I would say it is very similar, only more specific in content and considering the limitations of arguments that can be used.

I think it will go well if you give it a chance - however, it's up to you and I respect your decision.

[ST88]

Show evidence supporting the view that Christianity does not hold the truth about God and humanity.[/b]

Let me just start off by saying that the two propositions above are not equal. To say that something has the answer is to provide support for a hypothesis. But to say that something does not have the answer is not necessarily to provide support against a hypothesis. The burden of proof, evidentially speaking, is on the hypothesis. That is to say, it is presumed false until it can be accepted as true. The state of humankind entering this world is non-belief, and so a force of application must be present in order for belief to occur. For this reason, evidence against the hypothesis is not necessary in order to deny it. The hypothesis must show supporting evidence in order for it to be accepted. This evidence may be debated, but debating the evidence for its denial is an exercise in futility. Because even if evidence against the hypothesis is refuted, this does not automatically point to the support of it. With that it mind, these are the reasonings I can come up with (though they are admittedly rather weak in terms of actual proof). Please keep in mind that there can be no direct evidence against something that by its very definition cannot be perceived in any meaningful way. I suppose the best way to frame this is that it would be more relevant to your discussion to be able refute the positive assertions rather than come up with the negative assertions here.

- Christianity has purported to hold the truth about all things throughout history, from astrophysics to medicine. It has continuously been proven wrong in every single area that deals with the material world. For some reason, it used to be important to the Christian world that the universe operate in the way Christianity said it did. As a result, evidence that the universe did not operate in this way was suppressed, and the producers of this evidence were persecuted or worse. I do not see much difference between the scientific and biological assertions of the Christianity of the Dark Ages and that of the current era. The only real difference is the method of persecution.

- The Bible operates on a level that by its own admittance is beyond intellectual understanding. We may choose to believe the witnesses therein, but witness testimony is spectacularly unreliable, especially in matters of belief (if you have a conviction that you are speaking with flaming shrubbery, you most likely will never be swayed otherwise). There is nothing about our world as it currently exists that need be explained by supernatural phenomenae in order for it to make sense. But because people are either too intellectually lazy or somehow do not have the capacity for understanding current system theories, they accept the simplistic notion of a God who takes care of such things so that we don't have to think about it. This is not the case of all Christians, but I'm sure there are incidents we can all think of where someone claimed God existed because a certain set of circumstances was just too fortuitous to occur by chance.

- The unprovability of God doesn't just extend into the realm of rational improbability (which I will give the example of life existing here on this planet when we have not quite yet found it on another planet), it extends into a necessary impossibility. This is not evidence, but it is reasoning based on the evidence. The idea that God cannot be perceived by the senses is just too convenient. Many Christians ask how unbelievers could possibly not "feel" God all around us or in certain actions or thoughts. I would ask how such feelings are possible, even by the definition of God contained in the Bible.

- The God of the Bible appears to a great many personnages. These contacts are written down in canon law. Why did they stop? Why hasn't the Church approved additional materials for a "continuing" Bible, when surely there have been additional stories of contacts with God. The majority of Christians have not exactly fallen all over themselves to denounce the Book of Mormon, but I doubt you'll find many people who believe in it. Why not? What makes it impossible for a New New Testament to be written and collated into an additional volume?

-Many Christians are bigots. Plain and simple. When they use Biblical doctrine for their beliefs about the "lesser" beings of this world, it gives off the stink of organized discrimination. While I realize that there are many, if not the vast majority of Christians who do not hold these views, I have to wonder who has the real power of Scripture behind them? Is Christianity tolerant or exclusionary? If exclusionary, what does this say about a religion that purports a wish to save the entire world? If tolerant, what does this say about how people misinterpret Scripture to suit their own agendas? It makes me think that to accept Christianity is to accept such a flawed book that can mean anything to anyone.

[dangerdan]

Ok, I’d first also like to say that the two propositions are very different animals, and I think this is an important concept to grasp. But for the sake of a good debate, I’ll jump in anyway…

2. Show evidence supporting the view that Christianity does not hold the truth about God and humanity.

ST88 has made some great points, I’d like to add another –

For something to be true, it is reasonable to assume that there are no glaring inconsistencies. Christianity is based on a particular book called the bible…

Now, if someone sincerely and objectively reads the bible, a number of inconstancies jump out…on a number of levels. From inconsistencies in concepts, chronological facts (order of events in Genesis or the resurrection), or plain hard…er…facts!? Was Jehoiachin eighteen (2 Kings 24:8 ) or was he 8 (2 Chron. 36:9 ) when he started his rule? This example is just the first taken from the thread about Biblical Mistakes, and I’m sure if Burnee51 is reading this, he’s getting awfully excited and is about to flood this thread with a plethora of other examples.

You really can’t get very far into the bible without noticing this, provided you are reading objectively. In fact, I literally just thought of another one! Genesis (amongst the talking snakes and eternal curses on women and angels having sex with women to make heroic giants) talks of God sending a flaming sword to guard the entrance of the Garden of Eden. Now, tell me something, were swords invented at this time? Surely swords where only invented after humans learned to work metals…an engineering feat. Why would God specifically send a sword? Adam and Eve sure wouldn’t know what the heck a sword was….Why not a pair of flaming ninja stars, or…heck, even a supersized M16 or lasergun?

If you wish to debate biblical inconsistencies specifically, then best we take it to another thread, I am merely using it as one example of how Christianity can be shown as not true.

[Quarkhead]

For evidence of number one, I submit the Bible.

For number two, I submit every non-Christian religious text in the history of the world.

Look, if real solid, undeniable evidence one way or the other were so easily findable by us on this board, there'd be very little to debate at all here.

But I will say that there is far more evidence about the historic existence of Gautama Buddha then there is of Christ.

But there is no verifiable material evidence of any diety, either in history or today. There is only faith and belief.

[chrispalasz]

1. Show evidence supporting the view that Christianity holds the Truth about God and humanity.

Historically, the Bible names real people and places.

People:

1. Ananias and Sapphira
2. Paul of Tarsus
3. Jesus of Nazareth
4. Herod
5. Tiberious Caesar
6. John the baptist
7. Antipas
8. The Galatians
9. Pontius Pilate
10. Samaritans
11. Sadducees


Places: (Where archaeological Evidence has been found)

1. Arad
* Num. 21:1, "When the Canaanite, the king of Arad, who lived in the Negev, heard that Israel was coming by the way of Atharim, then he fought against Israel, and took some of them captive."
* Num. 33:40, "Now the Canaanite, the king of Arad who lived in the Negev in the land of Canaan, heard of the coming of the sons of Israel."
1. "Arad 30 km NE of Beersheba, excavated from 1962 to 1974 by Y. Aharoni and R. B. K. Amiran." (The New Bible Dictionary, (Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.; 1962.)
2. "The site consists of an upper mound or acropolis, where excavation has revealed an Iron Age (post thirteenth century b.c." (Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper’s Bible Dictionary, (San Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.) 1985.
3. The remains of a Hebrew temple were uncovered at Arad, (Horn, Siegfried H., Biblical Archaeology: a Generation of Discovery; Andrews University, Berrien Springs, Michigan; 1985. p.45-46.)
2. Bethel
1. Amos 7:12-13, "Then Amaziah said to Amos, "Go, you seer, flee away to the land of Judah, and there eat bread and there do your prophesying! 13 "But no longer prophesy at Bethel, for it is a sanctuary of the king and a royal residence."
1. "W. F. Albright made a trial excavation at Bethel in 1927. Albright then mounted a full excavation in 1934. His assistant that year, J. L. Kelso, continued the excavation in 1954, 1957, and 1960." (Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper’s Bible Dictionary, (San Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.; 1985.)
3. Capernaum
1. Matt. 17:24, "And when they had come to Capernaum, those who collected the two-drachma tax came to Peter, and said, "Does your teacher not pay the two-drachma tax?"
1. "Identified since 1856 with Tell Hum, Capernaum has been sporadically excavated for the past 130 years." (Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper’s Bible Dictionary, (San Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.; 1985.)
4. Chorazin
1. Matt. 11:21, "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes."
1. "Excavations of the now deserted town indicate that it once covered an area of twelve acres and was built on a series of terraces with the basalt stone local to this mountainous region." (Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper’s Bible Dictionary, (San Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.; 1985.)
5. Dan
1. Judges 18:29, "And they called the name of the city Dan, after the name of Dan their father who was born in Israel; however, the name of the city formerly was Laish."
1. "The excavation of Dan began in 1966 under the direction fo Avraham Biran." (Horn, Siegfried H., Biblical Archaeology: a Generation of Discovery; Andrews University, Berrien Springs, Michigan; 1985. p. 42)
2. "Formerly called Laish, it is mentioned in the execration texts, the eighteenth-century b.c. Mari tablets, and the records of the Egyptian pharaoh Thutmose III. It is identified with Tel Dan (modern Tell el-Qadi) covering about 50 acres in the center of a fertile valley near one of the principal springs feeding the Jordan River...Tel Dan has been excavated by A. Biran since 1966. The earliest occupation, probably the full extent of the tell, goes back to about the middle of the third millennium b.c." (Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper’s Bible Dictionary; San Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.; 1985.)
6. Ephesus
1. Eph. 1:1, "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, to the saints who are at Ephesus, and who are faithful in Christ Jesus."
1. "Austrian archaeologists in this century [2oth] have excavated the 24,000-seat theater and the commercial agora, as well as many other public buildings and streets of the first and second centuries a.d., so that the modern visitor can gain some impression of the city as known by Paul. (Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper’s Bible Dictionary, (San Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.; 1985.)
7. Gaza
1. Acts 8:26, "But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, "Arise and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza."
1. Gaza was was excavated by W. J. Phythian-Adams in 1922. (Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper’s Bible Dictionary, (San Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.; 1985.)
8. Gezer
1. Joshua 16:10, "But they did not drive out the Canaanites who lived in Gezer..."
1. R.A.S. MacAlister "directed the Palestine Exploration Fund for many years and conducted extensive excavations at Gezer (1902–1909). (Douglas, J. D., Comfort, Philip W. & Mitchell, Donald, Editors, Who’s Who in Christian History, (Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.; 1992.)
9. Hazor
1. Joshua 11:1, "Then it came about, when Jabin king of Hazor heard of it, that he sent to Jobab king of Madon and to the king of Shimron and to the king of Achshaph."
2. Jer. 49:48, "Concerning Kedar and the kingdoms of Hazor, which Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon defeated. Thus says the Lord, "Arise, go up to Kedar and devastate the men of the east."
1. "This large Canaanite and Israelite city in upper Galilee was excavated under Yigael Yadin's direction from 1955 to 1958 and from 1968 to 1970." (Horn, Siegfried H., Biblical Archaeology: a Generation of Discovery; Andrews University, Berrien Springs, Michigan; 1985. p. 40.)
10. Hesbon
1. Josh. 12:2, "Sihon king of the Amorites, who lived in Heshbon, and ruled from Aroer, which is on the edge of the valley of the Arnon..."
1. Excavations were undertaken by Andrews University from 1968 to 1976. (Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper’s Bible Dictionary, (San Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.; 1985.)
11. Jericho
1. Num. 22:1, "Then the sons of Israel journeyed, and camped in the plains of Moab beyond the Jordan opposite Jericho."
1. "Jericho was the oldest inhabited and fortified city ever excavated." (Horn, Siegfried H., Biblical Archaeology: a Generation of Discovery; Andrews University, Berrien Springs, Michigan; 1985. p. 37)
2. "The city of OT times is represented today by a mound 70 feet high and 10 acres in area...The ancient city was excavated by C. Warren (1867), E. Sellin and C. Watzinger (1907-09), J. Garstang (1930-36), and K. Kenyon (1952-58)." (Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper’s Bible Dictionary; San Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.; 1985.)
3. "The first scientific excavation there (1907-9) was by Sellin and Watzinger (Jericho, 1913)." (The New Bible Dictionary; Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.; 1962.).
12. Joppa
1. Acts 9:38, "And since Lydda was near Joppa, the disciples, having heard that Peter was there, sent two men to him, entreating him, "Do not delay to come to us."
1. "During excavations of the site of ancient Joppa a thirteenth-century b.c. citadel gate was uncovered..." (Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper’s Bible Dictionary, (San Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.; 1985.)
13. Nineveh
1. 2 Kings 19:36, "So Sennacherib king of Assyria departed and returned home, and lived at Nineveh."
2. Jonah 1:1-2, "The word of the Lord came to Jonah the son of Amittai saying, 2 "Arise, go to Nineveh the great city, and cry against it, for their wickedness has come up before Me."
1. Excavated in from 1845 to 1857 by Austen H. Layard. (Douglas, J. D., Comfort, Philip W. & Mitchell, Donald, Editors, Who’s Who in Christian History, (Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.; 1992.)
14. Shechem
1. Gen. 12:6, "And Abram passed through the land as far as the site of Shechem, to the oak of Moreh. Now the Canaanite was then in the land."
2. Gen. 33:18, "Now Jacob came safely to the city of Shechem, which is in the land of Canaan, when he came from Paddan-aram, and camped before the city."
1. "Excavations were carried out at Shechem, first by Austrian-German expeditions in 1913 and 1914, and again from 1926 to 1934, under several directors, and then by an American expedition from 1956 to 1972....Excavation of the sacred area revealed a courtyard sanctuary and a later fortress temple dedicated to El-berith "the god of the covenant." This temple, which was destroyed by Abimelech, the son of the judge Gideon (Judges 9) has provided us with a date of the judges period." (Horn, Siegfried H., Biblical Archaeology: a Generation of Discovery; Andrews University, Berrien Springs, Michigan; 1985. p. 40)
2. Most recently a structure identified as an Israelite altar has been excavated on the northeastern slope of Mt. Ebal. Dating to the 13th to 12th centuries B.C., considered to be the time of Joshua, the altar suggest the possibility that it may be the altar built by Joshua and described in Deuteronomy 27, 28." (Horn, Siegfried H., Biblical Archaeology: a Generation of Discovery; Andrews University, Berrien Springs, Michigan; 1985. p. 40)
15. Susa
1. Neh. 1:1, "The words of Nehemiah the son of Hacaliah. Now it happened in the month Chislev, in the twentieth year, while I was in Susa the capitol,
2. Esther 1:2, "Now it took place in the days of Ahasuerus, the Ahasuerus who reigned from India to Ethiopia over 127 provinces, 2 in those days as King Ahasuerus sat on his royal throne which was in Susa the capital,
1. Escavations were conducted by Marcel Dieulafoy from 1884 to 1886 (Douglas, J. D., Comfort, Philip W. & Mitchell, Donald, Editors, Who’s Who in Christian History, (Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.; 1992.)

http://www.carm.org/questions/evidence_ ... ogical.htm

OTHER:

1. Did the places and cultures that are mentioned in the Bible and the other ancient texts exist?
Yes, in many cases, they did. Archaeologists have found evidence for many of the locations and cultures mentioned in the ancient texts.

2. Did the events that are described in these texts happen?
Some of them did; archaeological evidence in the form of physical evidence or supporting documents from other sources can be found for some of the battles, the political struggles, and the building and collapse of cities.

3. Did the mystical things that are described in the texts occur?
It's not my area of expertise, but if I were to hazard a guess, if there were miracles that occurred, they wouldn't leave archaeological evidence.

About.com: http://archaeology.about.com/cs/educati ... ble+Events

If the Gospel Writers were biased, can we trust their testimony?

Being biased about something does not mean that you cannot tell the truth. Take for example the case of a robbery of a small store. The robber shoots and the wounds two employees, escapes, but is later apprehended. At the trial the employees who have recovered from their injuries are brought in to testify. Both of these witnesses are biased in that they want to see the perpetrator properly punished. But, under oath their testimony is accepted as perfectly valid -- providing there aren't obvious problems. So, being biased does not automatically mean that the testimony they give is not true.
The New Testament writers were certainly biased, but their bias was towards honesty and truth, not deceit. Their intention was to accurately record and testify to the events that they had seen. Remember, the disciples were followers of Jesus who taught them to love, to be kind, faithful, and honest. And this wasn't all. Jesus warned against hypocrisy (Matt. 6:1, and against bearing false witness (Matt. 19:18). The whole life of Jesus was based on integrity, character, faithfulness, truthfulness, love, and sacrifice. This is what the disciples learned from Jesus and this is what they taught in their writings. So, if they learned anything from Jesus it was to live in truth for this is exactly what Jesus said, "Sanctify them in the truth; Thy word is truth. 18"As Thou didst send Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19"And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth," (John 17:17-19).
Furthermore, the fact is that there were plenty of people around who could have discounted what the apostles had written if what they wrote was inaccurate. Yet, we find no evidence of any such thing in any writings of the time. Yes, the disciple were biased. But to what? To lying? To exaggerating? Or were they biased towards the truth of who Jesus is and what He had done?
Of course, just because eyewitnesses wrote about Jesus rising from the dead does not mean it actually happened. This is true, but why would the disciples lie about this? Why would they risk the lives, their families, their cultural ties, and even end up dying for it all if they knew it was all a lie developed out of their "bias"? It doesn't make sense. But what does make sense is that the disciples were telling the truth.

http://www.carm.org/questions/biased.htm

The Mathematical Odds of Jesus Fulfilling Prophecy

"The following probabilities are taken from Peter Stoner in Science Speaks (Moody Press, 1963) to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. Stoner says that by using the modern science of probability in reference to eight prophecies, ‘we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 1017." That would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. In order to help us comprehend this staggering probability, Stoner illustrates it by supposing that "we take 1017 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover all of the state two feet deep. Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man."
Stoner considers 48 prophecies and says, "we find the chance that any one man fulfilled all 48 prophecies to be 1 in 10157, or 1 in 10,00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 000,000,000."

(This information was taken from the book Evidence that Demands a Verdict, by Josh McDowell.)

Establishing the credibility of the Bible is step 1.

[chrispalasz]

To Quarkhead:

I don't want to get wound up in a non-evidential debate here. This thread is used primarily for evidence, but I will comment on a couple things:

The first post says this:

1. Show evidence supporting the view that Christianity holds the Truth about God and humanity.

2. Show evidence supporting the view that Christianity does not hold the truth about God and humanity.

I have highlighted an important word in red. By doing this, I am trying to show you that it does not say, "show conclusive evidence that Christianity holds the truth about God and humanity." You get the picture? There is a lot of evidence to support both sides using the given criteria. There isn't conclusive objective evidence.

Also, I do not, not will I deny the statement that there once lived a man named Gautama Buddha that wrote some books and is the founder of Buddhism. But, he was just a guy.

On this thread, we are not presenting evidence of a diety. Nor are we (or could we) present evidence of the lack of diety. We are presenting evidence that supports our belief.

Clear enough? Okay. Let's continue.

[bernee51]

1. Show evidence supporting the view that Christianity holds the Truth about God and humanity.

Historically, the Bible names real people and places.

The Da Vinci Code lists real people and places...must be factual then.

[/size]
Places: (Where archaeological Evidence has been found)

Interesting list. But means nothing other than some of the bible obviously reflects folk tales of the time that describe real or supposedly real events.

I'll do some research nd see if I can come up with a competing list where the bible makes claims that are clearly historically incorrect.

The Mathematical Odds of Jesus Fulfilling Prophecy.

This, of course, presupposes that prophecies were indeed fulfilled. This is not necessarily a given.

Establishing the credibility of the Bible is step 1.[/size]

Let me know when you manage to do it, OK?

[bernee51]

[
Also, I do not, not will I deny the statement that there once lived a man named Gautama Buddha that wrote some books

in the interests of accuracy...

Buddha did not write any books nor where any of his talks copied as he gave them. All extant Buddhist texts which puport to be the words of the Buddha are in fact second hand recllections written in the years after his death.

and is the founder of Buddhism.

He founded nothing - his followers called his system of living by the name Buddhism

But, he was just a guy.

If he existed.