Where did the 3 Kings go?

[marco]

We learn that the baby Jesus was visited by three kings, wise men or magi. They came to see him and then disappeared into the shadows of history or fiction. So we ask:

What was the point of their visit?
In what way did it affect history?
If they are just symbolic, unreal figures - what is their purpose?

More importantly, does this mythology - if it is mythology - destroy belief in Christ?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to Claire Evans]

Is there any historical sources that say that it was just a legend that Herod ordered the killing of babies?

Wikipedia
Herod the Great
Regarding the Massacre of the Innocents, although Herod was guilty of many brutal acts including the killing of his wife and two of his sons, no other contemporary source refers to the massacre.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_the_Great

The Jewish Encyclopedia
HEROD I
The connection of Herod with the alleged massacre of the Innocents as related in the New Testament is now generally admitted by independent Christian thinkers to be legendary.
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7598-herod-i

Associates for Biblical Research
The Slaughter of the Innocents: Historical fact or Legendary Fiction?
The slaughter of the innocents is unattested in secular records, but the historical plausibility of this event happening is consistent with the character and actions of Herod the Great.
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/20 ... px#Article

The account in Gospel Matthew of Herod ordering the slaughter of baby boys in the vicinity of Bethlehem under the age of two is found ONLY in Gospel Matthew and nowhere else. This is a simply a true fact.

[JLB32168]

More importantly, does this mythology - if it is mythology - destroy belief in Christ?

I don't know of any Christian whose belief in Christ was destroyed by the ambiguity of the Persian Magi.

[tfvespasianus]

Good arguments against the historicity of the Massacre of the Innocents are not rooted in the silence of the historical record. The reasons for this are several. First, if we accept that the event took place for the sake of argument, we can look at demographic data and to estimate how many deaths were actually involved. It is fairly feasible to posit that about 1% of a given population is 2 years are younger and male. Moreover, most archaeological data supports the idea that Bethlehem was not that populous. So, we can do the math on that one and if our only argument is silence, then one can reasonably argue that the silence is not inexplicable given other more heinous things that Herod is attested as doing.

The argument against the historicity of the Massacre is primarily supported by its use as motif by the author of Matthew. The event is directly linked to a proof-text from Jeremiah and is further an allusion to the Exodus story. Matthew uses literary technique throughout his gospel to portray Jesus in line with Moses. The idea is that, along with lack of corroboration we have the possibility of literary artifice in the narrative versus the probability that these things are simply coincidence (i.e. real events mirrored literary themes).

Take care,
TFV

[Willum]

More importantly, does this mythology - if it is mythology - destroy belief in Christ?

I don't know of any Christian whose belief in Christ was destroyed by the ambiguity of the Persian Magi.

Well it should. Since the three magi were, and still are the three stars in Orion's belt that point to Sirius, and announce the end of winter, and the birth if Isis/Osiris on 25 December, the "birth" of Jesus as well.

But I am sure that is just another coincidence...

[JLB32168]

Since the three magi were, and still are the three stars in Orion's belt that point to Sirius, and announce the end of winter, and the birth if Isis/Osiris on 25 December, the "birth" of Jesus as well. But I am sure that is just another coincidence...

Well, that’s one interpretation I suppose. I don’t subscribe to it of course.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Since the three magi were, and still are the three stars in Orion's belt that point to Sirius, and announce the end of winter, and the birth if Isis/Osiris on 25 December, the "birth" of Jesus as well. But I am sure that is just another coincidence...

Well, that’s one interpretation I suppose. I don’t subscribe to it of course.

Wikipedia
Orion's Belt
Orion's Belt or the Belt of Orion, also known as the Three kings or Three Sisters, is an asterism in the constellation Orion. It consists of the three bright stars Alnitak, Alnilam and Mintaka.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion%27s_Belt

[JLB32168]

Orion's Belt
Orion's Belt or the Belt of Orion, also known as the Three kings or Three Sisters, is an asterism in the constellation Orion. It consists of the three bright stars Alnitak, Alnilam and Mintaka.

Did calling the three stars “Three Kings� ante-date the story of the Magi from Persia or did Christians start calling the three stars “Three Kings� after the Greek Empire was baptized?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Orion's Belt
Orion's Belt or the Belt of Orion, also known as the Three kings or Three Sisters, is an asterism in the constellation Orion. It consists of the three bright stars Alnitak, Alnilam and Mintaka.

Did calling the three stars “Three Kings� ante-date the story of the Magi from Persia or did Christians start calling the three stars “Three Kings� after the Greek Empire was baptized?

Orion's belt is arguably part of the most recognized star formation in the night sky, along with the big dipper. The three stars have been refereed to as many things over the centuries.

Wikipedi
Orion's Belt
Richard Hinckley Allen lists many folk names for the Belt of Orion. The English ones include: Jacob's Rod or Staff; Peter's Staff; the Golden Yard-arm; the L, or Ell; the Ell and Yard; the Yard-stick, and the Yard-wand; the Ellwand; Our Lady's Wand; the Magi; the Three Kings; the Three Marys; or simply the Three Stars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion%27s_Belt

Whether or not referring to the stars as the three kings is a post Jesus tradition or occurred prior to the birth of Jesus I cannot say. Gospel Matthew makes no mention of three kings however, so the whole story of the three kings is nothing but unfounded tradition.

[Willum]

[Replying to JLB32168]

I am not sure what you are saying, but, interestingly, the Book of Job and other books in the Bible refer to them as Orion and also the Pleiades, but when Job et&al were written, according to Biblical scholars, the myths behind them, or the names, didn't exist yet.

That is some pretty good prophesy, referring to constellations that wouldn't exist for a few hundred years, at least, instead of the names that Hebrew would know them as.

How did they do it? If it were written then, how would they know the that it referred to constellations? Was it written in Hebrew for Greeks?

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 56 by Claire Evans]

I believe Zaraθuštra’ was an historical figure but the only source of his teachings is from the Avesta. The oldest copies are from the 13th century.

Wikipedia
Avesta
The Avesta texts fall into several different categories, arranged either by dialect, or by usage. The principal text in the liturgical group is the Yasna, which takes its name from the Yasna ceremony, Zoroastrianism's primary act of worship, and at which the Yasna text is recited. The most important portion of the Yasna texts are the five Gathas, consisting of seventeen hymns attributed to Zoroaster himself.

This is not telling me when this was written.

"The texts which form the canon were not all written at the same period. We must at least make a chronological distinction between the Old Avestan texts (the G�th�s—Y. 28-34, 43-51, 53; the Yasna Haptaŋh�iti—Y. 35-41; and the four great prayers of Y. 27) and the remaining, Young Avestan, texts. The Old Avestan texts are probably several centuries older than the others, although a precise date can not yet be justified. In the last ten years a general consensus has gradually emerged in favor of placing the G�th�s around A.D. 1000 and assuming that the composition of the best texts of the recent Avesta is more or less contemporary with the Old Persian monuments. The Vidēvd�d seems to be more recent than the Yašts or the Yasna and it has also been suggested that it belongs to a particular liturgical school; however, no linguistic or textual argument allows us to attain any degree of certainty in these matters.

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/avesta-holy-book

Wikipedia
Torah
Authorship
The Talmud holds that the Torah was written by Moses, with the exception of the last eight verses of Deuteronomy, describing his death and burial, being written by Joshua.[18] Alternatively, Rashi quotes from the Talmud that "God spoke them, and Moses wrote them with tears." The Mishnah includes the divine origin of the Torah as an essential tenet of Judaism.

The modern scholarly consensus, known as the Documentary hypothesis, is that the Torah has multiple authors and that its composition took place over centuries.[22] This contemporary common hypothesis among biblical scholars states that the first major comprehensive draft of the Pentateuch was composed in the late 7th or the 6th century BC (the Jahwist source), and that this was later expanded by the addition of various narratives and laws (the Priestly source) into a work very like the one existing today.

"The consensus of scholarship is that the stories are taken from four different written sources and that these were brought together over the course of time to form the first five books of the Bible as a composite work. The sources are known as J, the Jahwist source (from the German transliteration of the Hebrew YHWH), E, the Elohist source, P, the priestly source, and D, the Deuteronomist source. ... Thus the Pentateuch (or Torah, as it is known by Jews) comprises material taken from six centuries of human history, which has been put together to give a comprehensive picture of the creation of the world and of God's dealings with his peoples, specifically with the people of Israel." (Professor John Riches of the University of Glasgow)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah#Pentateuch

The Torah is attributed to Moses himself. And yet it was not assembled into something approximating it's current form until a thousand years or so after the time of Moses.

Wikipedia
Torah
Torah and Judaism
Rabbinic writings indicate that the Oral Torah was given to Moses at Mount Sinai, which, according to the tradition of the Orthodox rabbis, occurred in 1312 BCE. The Orthodox rabbinic tradition holds that the Written Torah was recorded during the following forty years, though many Jewish scholars affirm the modern scholarly consensus that the Written Torah has multiple authors and was written over centuries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah#Pentateuch

So?

We know that Mithra was a pagan Iranian deity but Mithra was adopted into Zoroastrianism as an angelic deity of covenant and oath. So there is much borrowing from other cultures in Zoroastrianism.

"Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. The Greek mind, dying, came to a transmigrated life in the theology and liturgy of the church; the Greek language having reigned for centuries over philosophy, became the vehicle of Christian literature and ritual;the Greek mysteries passed down into the impressive mystery of the mass. Other pagan cultures contributed to the syncretist result. From Egypt came the ideas of a devine trinity, the last judgement and a personal immortality of reward and punishment; from Egypt the adoration of the mother and child, and the mystic philosophy that made Neoplatonism and Gnosticism, and obscured the Christian creed; there too, Christian monasticism would find it's exemplars and it's source. From Phrygia came the worship of the Great Mother; from Syria the Resurrection drama of Adonis; from Thrace, perhaps, the cult of Dionysus, the dying and saving god. From Persia came millenarianism, the Darkness and the Light; already in the Fourth Gospel Christ is the `Light shinning in the darkness and the darkness has never put it out.' The Mithraic ritual so closely resembled the eucharistic sacrifice of the Mass that Christian fathers charged the Devil with inventing these similarities to mislead frail minds. Christianity was the last great creation of the pagan world." (The Story of Civilization vol.3, "Caesar and Christ" by Will Durant, p.595).

From Phrygia came the worship of the Great Mother; from Syria the Resurrection drama of Adonis; from Thrace, perhaps, the cult of Dionysus, the dying and saving god.

There was no resurrection of Adonis:

But Adonis met a boar and attacked it, and the boar fought him back, wounding him. Adonis died in Aphrodite's arms, who came to him, having heard his groans. When he died she sprinkled the blood with nectar and the short-lived anemone, which takes its name from the wind which so easily makes it fall, was produced. After their daughter, Beroe 5, the city Berytos (Beyrut) in Lebanon was called. Both Dionysus 2 and Poseidon fell in love with her. There is also a river Adonis near the city of Byblos.

http://www.maicar.com/GML/Adonis.html

Dionysus:

See no reference to a saving god. Only birth and resurrection.

"Because crops die in winter and return in spring, Dionysus was seen as a symbol of death and resurrection."

Read more: http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Cr-Dr/D ... z4GizPcUqi

From Egypt came the ideas of a devine trinity, the last judgement and a personal immortality of reward and punishment;

The trinity was made up of three different entities: Isis, Horus and Osiris. The Holy Trinity is the Son, Father and Holy Spirit which are one entity. There is nothing new about punishment and judgment in the after-life. We all want that, don't we?

From Persia came millenarianism, the Darkness and the Light; already in the Fourth Gospel Christ is the `Light shinning in the darkness and the darkness has never put it out.'

The only reference to millenarianism in Christianity is from Revelation and Jesus did not preach that. There are many occult references in Revelation. I don't believe Jesus will come again to reign for a thousand years.

the Darkness and the Light; already in the Fourth Gospel Christ is the `Light shinning in the darkness and the darkness has never put it out.'

The Darkness and the Light in reference to what pagan god?

The Mithraic ritual so closely resembled the eucharistic sacrifice of the Mass that Christian fathers charged the Devil with inventing these similarities to mislead frail minds.

The cult of Mirtha only appeared in the Roman Empire in the 3rd and 4th century AD. Obviously it adopted the Christian doctrine.


In the absence of Mithraic literature, evidence of the cult, its rituals, and customs comes from archaeological finds and depictions of the god.

So it is nonsense that there are any Eucharistic references regarding Mithra.

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/errw/hd_errw.htm

the adoration of the mother and child

This is the only thing that Christianity borrowed from courtesy of the heretic Catholic Church.

It is nonsense that Krishna was born of a virgin. He was his mother's eighth child.

It's nonsense that Mary the mother of Jesus was a perpetual virgin. Gospels Matthew and Mark mention the brothers of Jesus by name, and mention that he had sisters. It's nonsense that Mary physically ascended to heaven. There is absolutely no support for such a claim in scripture. But Christians have contrived to assert that both are true anyway, according to their dogma.

That's Catholic nonsense you are mentioning. There is no biblical evidence to back up these claims.