What really happened in the garden of Eden.

[mickiel]

One of the most distorted events in human history, is the events in Eden and what really happened there. The common perception is that God created Adam and Eve, trained them and taught them and gave them his Holy Spirit: they then had to face satan, as the devil sneeked into Eden and totally messed up the heads of Adam and Eve and thus they failed some kind of test from God, and were thrown out of the garden. And this is erroneously called " The Fall."

I disagree with so much of these religious assumptions. First, there is absolutely no evidence that God gave Adam and Eve his Spirit, or that he prepared them for this " Contest" with satan. The young couple were left totally defenseless and they had absolutely no chance whatsoever against the serpent. The serpent did not sneak into the garden, he could only gain access from God himself, so God planned the event.

In Gen. 1:27, God gives Adam and Eve " Consciousness", which is what " The Image of God " means. The image of God is not anything physical. In Gen. 2:16 God commands that the couple not eat of a tree he created that contained the knowledge of Good and Evil", from that we can know that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of either good or evil, to this point. Now in Gen. 3:1 we can see that the serpent , or satan, was created by God, because he was MORE subtil, MORE deceptive than any OTHER beast THAT GOD HAD MADE! So God MADE him that way.

Then we now have satan inside of the garden of Eden ,we MUST assume that God planned on him being there. So satan was " More", in other words, more powerful than any other creation on earth. Now we have in verse 1, satan begins his deception. He goes directly to Eve, Adam stands by and does nothing, because he did not know anythingelse to do. The serpent does his thing, the young couple does what God commanded them not to do. And God knew this would happen, and God did absolutely nothing to help them, and that must be remembered and understood.

In Gen. 3:7 it clearly states that " The EYES of both of them were OPENED!" This does not mean they were physically blind before this seduction, it means they were SPIRITUALLY blind!! They did NOT have the Spirit of God or any spiritual training. They were CLOSED before this happened; they could NOT see before this event, they were spiritually BLIND!

What do you think will happen when God sends the most seductive, subtle, powerful being on earth to face a spiritually blind couple? Its academic, but totally misunderstood by religion.

[Yahu]

Did you notice that last phrase "...and did eat"? It was not the "eating" of the fruit that made her a sinner -- she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she "did eat."

Sorry but that contradicts scripture. Lusting after the potential wisdom isn't sin. It isn't lust at all. It is desire because wanting greater wisdom is a good thing. When lust is acted upon it conceives sin.

Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

You have to give into lust for it to be sin. A desire for greater wisdom isn't sin. To be lust, it must be a desire for something forbidden. Wisdom is not forbidden but getting it by taking the forbidden fruit is the sin of disobedience. Yah instructs us to pray for greater wisdom but we have to go about it the correct way.

Yah never said not to look at the fruit. Adam must have told her not to even look at it or touch it. He added conditions on top of what Yah had commanded him. So her first error was disobedience to her husband. Granted Adam was in error for adding conditions on top of the actual law given to him.

[onewithhim]

One of the most distorted events in human history, is the events in Eden and what really happened there. The common perception is that God created Adam and Eve, trained them and taught them and gave them his Holy Spirit: they then had to face satan, as the devil sneeked into Eden and totally messed up the heads of Adam and Eve and thus they failed some kind of test from God, and were thrown out of the garden. And this is erroneously called " The Fall."

You yourself have distorted the account of what happened in Eden. Adam and Eve were not naive little children with no spiritual or emotional ammunition to thwart Satan. If this was the case, God would be a sadistic tyrant to unleash the Devil onto those innocent child-like humans. No, they had to be informed and then clearly warned about what would happen if they touched that one tree (the one tree that symbolized God's own right to tell them what was right and what was wrong).

Eve was tricked into thinking that God was holding back something good from her. So instead of trusting God, she allowed herself to go after her own independence, preferring to decide for herself what was right or wrong. Adam was not tricked; he knew exactly what was up, and he chose to follow Eve in her tragic action. They both apparently wanted to call their own shots, independent of God. (See I Timothy 2:14.)

Your arguments ring hollow, because you assume too many things that you can't verify by Scripture.

[mickiel]

One of the most distorted events in human history, is the events in Eden and what really happened there. The common perception is that God created Adam and Eve, trained them and taught them and gave them his Holy Spirit: they then had to face satan, as the devil sneeked into Eden and totally messed up the heads of Adam and Eve and thus they failed some kind of test from God, and were thrown out of the garden. And this is erroneously called " The Fall."

You yourself have distorted the account of what happened in Eden. Adam and Eve were not naive little children with no spiritual or emotional ammunition to thwart Satan. If this was the case, God would be a sadistic tyrant to unleash the Devil onto those innocent child-like humans. No, they had to be informed and then clearly warned about what would happen if they touched that one tree (the one tree that symbolized God's own right to tell them what was right and what was wrong).

Eve was tricked into thinking that God was holding back something good from her. So instead of trusting God, she allowed herself to go after her own independence, preferring to decide for herself what was right or wrong. Adam was not tricked; he knew exactly what was up, and he chose to follow Eve in her tragic action. They both apparently wanted to call their own shots, independent of God. (See I Timothy 2:14.)

Your arguments ring hollow, because you assume too many things that you can't verify by Scripture.

Well I see it like I see it; could I be wrong? Well of course I could be , but I think I have the best reasonable argument. Adam and Eve were like children, I think they may have had teenager bodies, but were most likely only months old when the serpent bewitched them. They were not intelligent, they did not even know they were naked. They were spiritually blind; in Gen. 3:7 their eyes were OPENED, AFTER they ate. They were not physically blind , they could see; they did NOT have God's Spirit and they were naive. They had no experience with satan. And Adam was tricked, not by the serpent but by Eve. Adam was a wimp who let his woman rule over him. We can know that by the curse God placed on Eve in Gen. 3:16,God increases the pain she will experience giving birth, he turns her " Desire to Adam", which means before the curse she did NOT desire him,. God then switches their roles, Eve is made submissive to Adam and he will rule over her ,

Now , you have to see the connotations in these curses; God did not curse her with things she was already doing, his curses changed how she was treating Adam. She did not desire Adam, which means she probally did not want him. And she obviously ruled over Adam, she showed that during the temptation with the serpent. God's curse was to make Adam rule over her, because BEFORE he did NOT! Its all right there in scripture.

Adam and Eve were all messed up , ill prepared , out classed , over powered , tricked , embarrassed, taken advantage of, out thought; It may have taken satan all of 6 verses to trick them; maybe 6 minutes long and it was over.

I know God knew all of that, and he changed none of it. God comes after this is all over , so he did not help them; God wanted them to get suckered, because that created the need for Christ to come. Adam and Eve's mishap helped build the bridge of Salvation.

[Pierac]

Did you notice that last phrase "...and did eat"? It was not the "eating" of the fruit that made her a sinner -- she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she "did eat."

Sorry but that contradicts scripture. Lusting after the potential wisdom isn't sin. It isn't lust at all. It is desire because wanting greater wisdom is a good thing. When lust is acted upon it conceives sin.

Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

You have to give into lust for it to be sin. A desire for greater wisdom isn't sin. To be lust, it must be a desire for something forbidden. Wisdom is not forbidden but getting it by taking the forbidden fruit is the sin of disobedience. Yah instructs us to pray for greater wisdom but we have to go about it the correct way.

Yah never said not to look at the fruit. Adam must have told her not to even look at it or touch it. He added conditions on top of what Yah had commanded him. So her first error was disobedience to her husband. Granted Adam was in error for adding conditions on top of the actual law given to him.

You are incorrect... Sin by definition is Missing the mark! I suggest you look up this up! You are assigning moral values to sin! One can completely be morally right with God... and still miss the mark!

I stand by my post! You missed the mark!



Paul


Word Study.... G264

ἁμα�τα�νω
hamartánō; fut. hamartē�sō, aor. hēmártēsa; 2d aor. hē�marton. To sin, to miss a mark on the way, not to hit the mark. One who keeps missing the mark in his relationship to God is hamartōlós (G268), sinner.

G264
ἁμα�τα�νω
hamartanō
Thayer Definition:
1) to be without a share in
2) to miss the mark
3) to err, be mistaken

... Harder!

[Yahu]

Did you notice that last phrase "...and did eat"? It was not the "eating" of the fruit that made her a sinner -- she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she "did eat."

Sorry but that contradicts scripture. Lusting after the potential wisdom isn't sin. It isn't lust at all. It is desire because wanting greater wisdom is a good thing. When lust is acted upon it conceives sin.

Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

You have to give into lust for it to be sin. A desire for greater wisdom isn't sin. To be lust, it must be a desire for something forbidden. Wisdom is not forbidden but getting it by taking the forbidden fruit is the sin of disobedience. Yah instructs us to pray for greater wisdom but we have to go about it the correct way.

Yah never said not to look at the fruit. Adam must have told her not to even look at it or touch it. He added conditions on top of what Yah had commanded him. So her first error was disobedience to her husband. Granted Adam was in error for adding conditions on top of the actual law given to him.

You are incorrect... Sin by definition is Missing the mark! I suggest you look up this up! You are assigning moral values to sin! One can completely be morally right with God... and still miss the mark!

I stand by my post! You missed the mark!



Paul


Word Study.... G264

ἁμα�τα�νω
hamartánō; fut. hamartē�sō, aor. hēmártēsa; 2d aor. hē�marton. To sin, to miss a mark on the way, not to hit the mark. One who keeps missing the mark in his relationship to God is hamartōlós (G268), sinner.

G264
ἁμα�τα�νω
hamartanō
Thayer Definition:
1) to be without a share in
2) to miss the mark
3) to err, be mistaken

... Harder!

Sin is a violation of Yah's law. There was only 1 law at the time that was given to man, 'don't eat of the tree'. That was the ONLY sin possible. That was the ONLY mark that they could miss.

Laws had not been made to cover any other sin. Yah added to the law as the need arose.

Why are you using Greek definitions? You have to go back to the Hebrew for any word that is then translated into Greek from the Hebrew! Many times the Greek allows for a broader definition or adds the definition.

[ttruscott]

Well I see it like I see it; could I be wrong? Well of course I could be , but I think I have the best reasonable argument. Adam and Eve were like children, I think they may have had teenager bodies, but were most likely only months old when the serpent bewitched them.

Is it reasonable to think that people only a few months old and childlike were working as gardeners for GOD and had the theological discussion of the life and death implications of breaking GOD's commandment that Eve had with the serpent? We know so many little children that can think and talk like that...

Your definition of reasonable would seem to be much different from mine...

[ttruscott]

Sin is a violation of Yah's law. There was only 1 law at the time that was given to man, 'don't eat of the tree'. That was the ONLY sin possible. That was the ONLY mark that they could miss.

Laws had not been made to cover any other sin. Yah added to the law as the need arose.

Have you considered the implication of 1 Timothy 1:9 We also know that the law is made NOT for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, on this topic of the law they were under if they were innocent or righteous?

Especially in light of these others about why the law is given: Romans 7:7 ... I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. and also Romans 3:20 ... For the Law merely brings awareness of sin.

Surely by these three verse witness, we can assume that because they got a law, do not eat, they were already lawbreakers and rebellious in need to become aware of their sin (open their eyes to their nakedness)!? Does not Rev 3:17 equate being blind (needing their eyes opened by the law) and naked with being sinful? Is not naked the same word as crafty used of the serpent's evil?

In other words, if we read and understood 1 Timothy 1:9, Rom 7:7 and 3:20 before we ever read the garden story as soon as they were given the command "Do not eat!" we'd have said, Oh those sinners, them!" right there.

[JLB32168]

That is exactly what I am saying, Adam and Eve were completely blind to satan, they were NOT responsible for what happened, God was!

Adam and Eve weren’t oblivious to what constituted good/evil. That idea isn’t compatible w/being created in God’s Image and Likeness. Certainly the scripture doesn’t say, “Adam and Eve had absolutely no knowledge of evil.� In fact, Philo gave ancient Jewish teaching on the subject:

• And by the tree of life [Moses, author of Genesis] was shadowing out the greatest of the virtues, namely, piety towards the gods, by means of which the soul is made immortal; and by the tree which had the knowledge of good and evil, he was intimating that wisdom and moderation, by means of which things, contrary in their nature to one another, are distinguished.

At a minimum, Adam and Eve knew that there was a thing called “good� and a thing called “evil� and that the first mentioned was to be preferred.

Judasim and Christianity are just wrong about this. In Gen. 3:7, " And the eyes of both of them were OPENED!" Which means BEFORE this eating event, they were CLOSED!

Why should we assume that his means that their eyes were opened to the knowledge of good and evil? The serpent said in the LXX, “You shall not die a death,� which implies that they knew what death would be. Ancient Judaism also taught that if only Adam and Eve had waited until the Sabbath, they would have been permitted to eat of the Trees of Knowledge and Life, and the purpose of creation would have been complete.

It means they were spiritual AND morally blind! They were dumb and simple minded. They had absolutely no intelligent training from God. There is absolutely no evidence to support God teaching them a lot of things. ZERO!

Your conclusion simply cannot be reconciled with the belief that Adam and Eve were created in God’s Image and Likeness.

[onewithhim]

One of the most distorted events in human history, is the events in Eden and what really happened there. The common perception is that God created Adam and Eve, trained them and taught them and gave them his Holy Spirit: they then had to face satan, as the devil sneeked into Eden and totally messed up the heads of Adam and Eve and thus they failed some kind of test from God, and were thrown out of the garden. And this is erroneously called " The Fall."

You yourself have distorted the account of what happened in Eden. Adam and Eve were not naive little children with no spiritual or emotional ammunition to thwart Satan. If this was the case, God would be a sadistic tyrant to unleash the Devil onto those innocent child-like humans. No, they had to be informed and then clearly warned about what would happen if they touched that one tree (the one tree that symbolized God's own right to tell them what was right and what was wrong).

Eve was tricked into thinking that God was holding back something good from her. So instead of trusting God, she allowed herself to go after her own independence, preferring to decide for herself what was right or wrong. Adam was not tricked; he knew exactly what was up, and he chose to follow Eve in her tragic action. They both apparently wanted to call their own shots, independent of God. (See I Timothy 2:14.)

Your arguments ring hollow, because you assume too many things that you can't verify by Scripture.

Well I see it like I see it; could I be wrong? Well of course I could be , but I think I have the best reasonable argument. Adam and Eve were like children, I think they may have had teenager bodies, but were most likely only months old when the serpent bewitched them. They were not intelligent, they did not even know they were naked. They were spiritually blind; in Gen. 3:7 their eyes were OPENED, AFTER they ate. They were not physically blind , they could see; they did NOT have God's Spirit and they were naive. They had no experience with satan. And Adam was tricked, not by the serpent but by Eve. Adam was a wimp who let his woman rule over him. We can know that by the curse God placed on Eve in Gen. 3:16,God increases the pain she will experience giving birth, he turns her " Desire to Adam", which means before the curse she did NOT desire him,. God then switches their roles, Eve is made submissive to Adam and he will rule over her ,

Now , you have to see the connotations in these curses; God did not curse her with things she was already doing, his curses changed how she was treating Adam. She did not desire Adam, which means she probally did not want him. And she obviously ruled over Adam, she showed that during the temptation with the serpent. God's curse was to make Adam rule over her, because BEFORE he did NOT! Its all right there in scripture.

Adam and Eve were all messed up , ill prepared , out classed , over powered , tricked , embarrassed, taken advantage of, out thought; It may have taken satan all of 6 verses to trick them; maybe 6 minutes long and it was over.

I know God knew all of that, and he changed none of it. God comes after this is all over , so he did not help them; God wanted them to get suckered, because that created the need for Christ to come. Adam and Eve's mishap helped build the bridge of Salvation.

You say, "God wanted them to get suckered." Hmmmm. So you feel that God is a sadistic tyrant that delights in playing sick games.

[Pierac]

Did you notice that last phrase "...and did eat"? It was not the "eating" of the fruit that made her a sinner -- she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she "did eat."

Sorry but that contradicts scripture. Lusting after the potential wisdom isn't sin. It isn't lust at all. It is desire because wanting greater wisdom is a good thing. When lust is acted upon it conceives sin.

Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

You have to give into lust for it to be sin. A desire for greater wisdom isn't sin. To be lust, it must be a desire for something forbidden. Wisdom is not forbidden but getting it by taking the forbidden fruit is the sin of disobedience. Yah instructs us to pray for greater wisdom but we have to go about it the correct way.

Yah never said not to look at the fruit. Adam must have told her not to even look at it or touch it. He added conditions on top of what Yah had commanded him. So her first error was disobedience to her husband. Granted Adam was in error for adding conditions on top of the actual law given to him.

You are incorrect... Sin by definition is Missing the mark! I suggest you look up this up! You are assigning moral values to sin! One can completely be morally right with God... and still miss the mark!

I stand by my post! You missed the mark!



Paul


Word Study.... G264

ἁμα�τα�νω
hamartánō; fut. hamartē�sō, aor. hēmártēsa; 2d aor. hē�marton. To sin, to miss a mark on the way, not to hit the mark. One who keeps missing the mark in his relationship to God is hamartōlós (G268), sinner.

G264
ἁμα�τα�νω
hamartanō
Thayer Definition:
1) to be without a share in
2) to miss the mark
3) to err, be mistaken

... Harder!

Sin is a violation of Yah's law. There was only 1 law at the time that was given to man, 'don't eat of the tree'. That was the ONLY sin possible. That was the ONLY mark that they could miss.

Laws had not been made to cover any other sin. Yah added to the law as the need arose.

Why are you using Greek definitions? You have to go back to the Hebrew for any word that is then translated into Greek from the Hebrew! Many times the Greek allows for a broader definition or adds the definition.

Yea... we see Jesus doing this a lot... thus my thread does the law of God change proves me correct from your response! Thank you for supporting my view that God changes His Law as he see fits!

Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

The Foundation of the world is before Eve or Adam even thought about eating a burrito much less from the tree of life! So why would Jesus... the Lamb of God need names written in a book from the foundation of the world ? Who or whom needs saving before Sin came into existence?


Perhaps just now.... your beginning from the beginning to understand the beginning of the point of this thread... which I did not start...BTW!


From your response does this make you rethink about converting to the wicked beliefs of Calvinism?



Paul