What is absolute truth? Define it in your terms!

[Madeline]

What is absolute truth? and how would you define it according to your beliefs. To me absolute truth is revealed to me in the book called the bible. It is the standard on how we should live and what our purpose is here on earth.

Love,
Madeline

[McCulloch]

I'm sweating here!

While you consider conceding defeat, I'll have a crack at the question for debate.
What is absolute truth?
To me, this means what is the underlying truth by which all other claims of truth must be subjected. The absolute truth then must be axiomatic; seen to be true without proof; self-evident.

Bertrand Russell is perhaps the only famous philosopher who has won a Nobel Prize (in literature). In his 1912 book The Problems of Philosophy, he identified three laws of thought. Here is an excerpt from the book:

1. The law of identity: 'Whatever is, is.'
2. The law of contradiction: 'Nothing can both be and not be.'
3. The law of excluded middle: 'Everything must either be or not be.'

Here is a start for the search for absolute truth. Explore the site, learn about the principles of critical thinking.

[Madeline]

Want evidence of the truth of the bible? Well lets look at what evidence is!

Yeah, I can show (or a doctor can show rather) "evidence" of how someone's liver may be have been destroyed by alcohol abuse / alcoholism.

But still, that person may CHOOSE to deny the "evidence".

I can show you "evidence" of how God created the earth through the land and sea and all the life forms that are within.

But still, that person may CHOOSE to deny the evidence.


Here's a thought;
Perhaps suggest this little experiment.

Exhale all the air from your lungs, and do NOT take a breath for one minute.

Without oxygen, the lungs can not function.
If the lungs no longer function, the heart will not be able to pump blood to sustain life.

Where does the oxygen that we need to live come from ?

There's some "evidence"

But still, that person may CHOOSE to deny the evidence.


Basically, through my own personal observations and life experiences, you can NOT prove anything to anybody if they're not able to be open minded enough to consider any other conclusion than their own.

Like the old saying which is SOOOOO true;

"You can't learn anything if you already know everything."

Love,
Madeline

[McCulloch]

Want evidence of the truth of the bible? Well lets look at what evidence is!

Bring it on.

Yeah, I can show (or a doctor can show rather) "evidence" of how someone's liver may be have been destroyed by alcohol abuse / alcoholism.
But still, that person may CHOOSE to deny the "evidence".

Alcohol abuse damages livers therefore the Bible is true?

I can show you "evidence" of how God created the earth through the land and sea and all the life forms that are within.
But still, that person may CHOOSE to deny the evidence.

Why don't you do that? Please present some evidence that God created the earth and all of the life form on it. Six days too?

Here's a thought;
Perhaps suggest this little experiment.

Exhale all the air from your lungs, and do NOT take a breath for one minute.

Without oxygen, the lungs can not function.
If the lungs no longer function, the heart will not be able to pump blood to sustain life.

Where does the oxygen that we need to live come from ?

There's some "evidence"

If you don't mind, I'll do this one as a thought experiment. I will not contradict you about the consequences of oxygen deprivation.
If I don't get oxygen, I will die. Therefore, God wrote the Bible.
Can you see where the conclusions drawn from your experiment are missing a few logical connections?
Now if you could provide evidence that oxygen is from God, you would be well on your way.

But still, that person may CHOOSE to deny the evidence.

Just how can I choose to deny the evidence when you have not presented any?

Basically, through my own personal observations and life experiences, you can NOT prove anything to anybody if they're not able to be open minded enough to consider any other conclusion than their own.

My observation as well.

Like the old saying which is SOOOOO true;

"You can't learn anything if you already know everything."

Yes, that is the fundamental difference between science and faith. Science says, "Let's look at the evidence, find patterns, form hypotheses, and test them to get closer to finding truth." Faith says, "This is a divine revelation from the Creator (who does apparently know everything) and is therefore true and beyond question. Anything that contradicts it must be denied or refuted, that way that which we already know to be true will not be challenged."

[Madeline]

Well, I had to get some ammo from someone else. But its still evidence that the bible is Gods Word.

God has revealed Himself in the Bible without error. The Bible itself claims this inerrancy (2 Timothy 3:16-17 (4); Matthew 5:18 (5); etc.). Let's look at some of the proofs for the Bible's claim to be the infallible word of God.

Archaeological evidenceThe first proof we have testifying to the reliability of the Bible is the archaeological evidence. Nelson Glueck, a respected Jewish archaeologist claims: "It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever contradicted a biblical reference ." (6) The liberals made wild claims against the Bible a hundred years ago but now they are silent. This is not true of other religions. The Mormon claim for inspiration of the Book of Mormon has been categorically condemned by the Smithsonian Institute because of the fallacies shown by archaeology; this is not so with the Bible. A.N. Sherwin-White, a respected classical historian at Oxford says about the book of Acts, "For Acts the confirmation of historicity is overwhelming...any attempt to reject its basic historicity even in matters of detail must now appear absurd." (7)

Historicity of JesusA case in point is the historicity of Jesus. Although many atheists state that Jesus never lived, He is mentioned by many contemporary, non-Christian historians. Let us look at the evidence.

Flavius Josephus, a first century Jewish historian wrote of Jesus and the Christians:

"so he [Ananus, son of Ananus the high priest] assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before him the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others (or some of his companions) and when he had formed an accusation against them, he delivered them to be stoned."

Other Jewish rabbinical writings, including Rabbi Eliezer and writers of the Talmud, talk about Jesus and his miracles. Surprisingly to many atheists, they never denied that miracles took place, but attempted to explain them as a result of evil (9). More information about Jesus in the Talmud can be found at Jesus Christ In The Talmud.

Cornelius Tacitus wrote about Jesus and the first century Christians in his Annals (a history of the Roman empire):

"Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus." (10)

Thallus, a Samaritan historian, wrote ca. 52 A.D. attempting to give a natural explanation for the earthquake and darkness which occurred at the crucifixion of Jesus. Mara Bar-Seraphon wrote a letter to his son in 73 A.D. which tells of the deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras, and of Jesus, "What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king?...Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given." Jesus is also mentioned by Phlegon, a first-century historian, Lucian of Samosata (in The Passing Peregrinus), and Plinius Secundus, (Pliny the Younger).

Scholars have made statements such as, "no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus ." (11) The latest version of Encyclopedia Britannica says in its discussion of the multiple extra-biblical witnesses:

"These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds by several authors at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries." (12)

Even the atheist H. G. Wells spoke of Jesus, "...one is obliged to say, "Here was a man. This part of the tale could not have been invented." (13)

Scientific evidenceRecent scientific evidence is adding to the evidence supporting the reliability of biblical chronology from the scriptures. This study demonstrated the reliability of the Biblical record regarding the Egyptian plagues and demise of Jericho.

Drs. Hendrik J. Bruins and Johannes van der Plicht reported in the prestigious British journal, Nature (14), that the destruction of Jericho was dated to 1580 (+/- 13 years) B.C. (using 14C dating). This date is significant, since several archeologists have insisted that Jericho was destroyed by the Egyptians between 1550 and 1300 B.C. The recent study discredits the Egyptian theory, since the date is much too old.

What is even more exciting is that scientists, using 14C dating and tree rings, have found evidence of a volcanic eruption from the Aegean island of Thera, which recently has been dated to 1628 B.C. (15). This would place the eruption at 45 years prior to the destruction of Jericho, at a time which coincidentally corresponds to the time of the plagues the Lord unleashed upon Egypt. Check out Exodus 10:

Then the Lord said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand toward the sky, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even a darkness which may be felt." So Moses stretched out his hand toward the sky, and there was thick darkness in all the land of Egypt for three days. (Exodus 10:21-22)

Even the researchers commented that the 45 years difference in events was "rather striking."

The Bible's Uniqueness and UnityThe next proof is the Bible's uniqueness and unity. The Bible was written by over 40 authors who came from just about every walk of life conceivable, including fisherman, kings, a butler, priests, and a tax collector. The 66 books of the Bible were written over a 1,500 year span in three languages on three continents with one theme and no contradictions. C.J. Sharp captures this miracle well:

"If a fragment of stone were found in Italy, another in Asia Minor, another in Greece, another in Egypt, and on and on until sixty-six fragments had been found, and if when put together they fitted perfectly together, making a perfect statue of Venus de Milo, there is not an artist or scientist but would arrive immediately at the conclusion that there was originally a sculptor who conceived and carved the statue. The very lines and perfections would probably determine which of the great ancient artists carved the statue. Not only the unity of the Scriptures, but their lines of perfection, suggest One far above any human as the real author. That could be no one but God (16)."

Prophetic evidenceYet another reason Christians believe God is the ultimate author of the Bible is the predictive prophecies in the Bible. This aspect is unique to the world's religions because if one predicts something will happen and it does not, they are proven to be phony. The Bible is literally filled with detailed prophecies that have been fulfilled with 100% accuracy. Here is a list of 85 Messianic prophecies (click here for a more complete list) along with their fulfillment through the life, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus:

The Bible

TAKE THAT!!!

Love,
Madeline

[bernee51]

TAKE THAT!!!

Love,
Madeline

I admire your enthusiasm...but take it yourself.

I suggest you read some sources other than apologia - just for a complete view.

Everything that you quoted as ''proof' of the existence of Jesus (with the possible exception of Josephus) has been thouroughly debunked = on this forum and elsewhere.

Even so...a existence of a historical person of Jesus (there may have been many - it is a common name) is not the same as the Jesus of the gospels.

Can I suggest also you do some basic reading in the art of logic. The following is what is known as a 'circularity' or begging the question"

Maddy said: God has revealed Himself in the Bible without error. The Bible itself claims this inerrancy (2 Timothy 3:16-17 (4); Matthew 5:18 (5); etc.).

love to you to...

[Madeline]

Phew! Its kind of hard keeping up on this thread, tough arguments! Well I know that God exists because my prayers are answered. Another proof that the bible is from God.

RESTORATION OF ISRAEL
Bible prophets, more than 2000 years ago, often spoke of a future restoration of the land of Israel. Many of those prophets lived during times in which their homeland was being conquered and destroyed by a succession of ancient empires. Today, we can see with our own eyes what some of those prophets saw with theirs - the current restoration of Israel - a nation that until 1948 had not been a united and sovereign nation for nearly 2900 years.

You can find this prophecy in the book of Ezekeil chapters 36 and 37. Now who else can write history in advance besides God?

Love,
Madeline

[bernee51]

Phew! Its kind of hard keeping up on this thread, tough arguments! Well I know that God exists because my prayers are answered.

What - all of them?

Restoration of Israel

You can find this prophecy in the book of Ezekeil chapters 36 and 37.

There are other views...

As Stephen Conifer wrote:

"There is nothing remarkable whatever about these alleged prophecies. In fact, the momentous return to which Ezekiel is here referring is almost assuredly that of the Jews from their captivity, which occurred in 537 B.C.E., but a single year after that in which the authors claim the book of Ezekiel was composed. That book was most likely written during the exile, and Ezekiel could have easily been in possession of ample and reliable evidence that it would end in the near future (i.e., within a year or so). It is also of significance that other parts of the prophecy in question were not fulfilled, e.g., that the Jews returning from captivity would strictly follow God's laws and that they would forever onward reside in their restored homeland. In fact, neither of these things ever happened."

[QED]

Madeline, we don't see too many fundamentalists like you on these forums from the UK -- I hope you take no offence at this description, but you clearly have a fundamentalists attitude in your beliefs and interpretation of the Bible. I hope you will engage in debate with me because, being closer to home, I'm even more curious to know how you come by your convictions.

Prophecy, I'm afraid to say, is a simple "trick" to perform. It can take advantage of our innate tendency to spot patterns in things. We have these built-in biases to save us from processing huge quantities of information. You may not see how this relates to prophecy, but the upshot is that it's far easier to "see" what you're expecting to see rather than something you're not. If you doubt this please mention it, I think it could be framed as an interesting new topic... however, have you ever walked into a familiar room and failed to notice something totally unexpected for a good while?

You raise plenty of other intrigue as well like your claim that God answers your prayers. We would be straying off your topic to debate this but you should be aware that some of this will be wondering how you know that your prayers weren't answered by coincidence. I'm about as far from the holy trinity as one could get -- yet I too often get the feeling that I have a guardian angel looking over me, however I also recognize that when things aren't going so well it's as if a devil is deliberately out to get me! These experiences then are no doubt shared by everyone -- be they faithful or infidel. You can look at it as the global mercy of God, I can look at is as a particularly human interpretation of contingency.

As for absolute truth, I'd like to know what you make of the research programs studying particle physics and cosmology. These programs are picking apart the fabric of the universe to find out how and what it's made of. There are some fascinating issues being resolved that address the question of what choices "God" had in creating the universe (if this is how it came about). I feel that the absolute truth is all around us if we dig deep enough in the spirit of exploration and curiosity.

[Madeline]

Phew! Its kind of hard keeping up on this thread, tough arguments! Well I know that God exists because my prayers are answered.

What - all of them?

Restoration of Israel

You can find this prophecy in the book of Ezekeil chapters 36 and 37.

There are other views...

As Stephen Conifer wrote:

"There is nothing remarkable whatever about these alleged prophecies. In fact, the momentous return to which Ezekiel is here referring is almost assuredly that of the Jews from their captivity, which occurred in 537 B.C.E., but a single year after that in which the authors claim the book of Ezekiel was composed. That book was most likely written during the exile, and Ezekiel could have easily been in possession of ample and reliable evidence that it would end in the near future (i.e., within a year or so). It is also of significance that other parts of the prophecy in question were not fulfilled, e.g., that the Jews returning from captivity would strictly follow God's laws and that they would forever onward reside in their restored homeland. In fact, neither of these things ever happened."

That is his personal interpretation based on lack of scriptural knowledge. He is missing pieces of the puzzle. If we take the entire OT into consideration we can see that Ezekiels Prophecy has nothing to do with the Jews returning to their land in 537 B.C. Please take a look at this, it goes into greater detail and substantiates that the prophecy was fulfilled in 1948.

Ezekiels Prophecy

And Jesus said that if we pray according to God's will he will honor our requests. All of the prayers that were align with His will has come to pass!

Love,
Madeline

[Madeline]

To QED:

I actually live in the U.S., nut was born in Cheshire and live there until I was 3. QED, my answered prayers are not the results of coincidence. Even if you believe that there are degrees of coincidences, my answered prayers would have to be BIG Coincidences. I can't pray to God and ask him for me to win the Lottery, that just isn't going to happen because it is not in God's will. Would God give an alcoholic a million dollars if he knew he was going to ge plastered with it? Jesus gave an example of what I am referring to:

For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? [Matthew 7:8-11]

God does not answer prayers which will cause harm to his children as you can see. Everything I asked according to God's will has come to pass. I prayed for the salvation of friends and family and they came to pass. I prayed for a good job so that I may be able to feed the homeless, it came to pass. I prayed for a quiter home so I may be able to study God's word more in-depth, it came to pass. These are among the inumerable amount of prayers which has come to pass.

You feel that if you dig deep enough in the spirit of exploration and curiosity, you can find truth. So why not explore via God's Spirit? God promises that his Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth if we allow him to enter. That is done by faith in the atoning death of His son on the Cross. However if you say that faith is simply not evidence, then obviously you are not willing to dig deeper to discover more truths.

John 16:13 - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Remember the commercial, Got milk?
Weeellll, Got the Holy Spirit?

Love,
Madeline