Christian 'Drop-outs'

[OpenYourEyes]

For Discussion or Debate:
How to prevent Christians from dropping out of the faith?

How to respond to Christians who have already dropped out of the faith?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Just to elaborate on some terms and why I started this thread...
A Christian drop-out stems from the same idea of high school drop-out, in that both groups left something prematurely. The Christian drop-out leaves Christianity usually due to some problem or conflict that they encounter with their belief system and then they give up prematurely. I think most people are accustomed to hearing about and assuming that many atheists leave the faith based on rational reasons but then when I press them I find that many of the key factors that should be considered in the decision are missing. There tends to be a lack of proper understanding of God and the Bible, a lack of familiarity with Christian apologetics, and even on conducting research into their objections. As such, I tend to not spend much time answering their every objection and instead I help lay a foundation for them (in their thinking) where they can find the answers themselves because all the main problem boils down to is a problem dealing with doubt.

One recent example is of a former Christian who drew a negative conclusion about some aspect of Christianity based on an inadequate answer that their professor told them. Apparently, this person considered asking a teacher as being sufficient to deal with their doubt since their response came after my questioning of whatever research they've done on the matter. Ironically, this person dropped out of their class on religion. Notice here no real effort was put in to look for answers either because the person didn't know how and where to look or this person just gave up. This is very common sign/pattern of someone who doesn't know how to deal with doubt.

[H.sapiens]

I reject the notion that folks'd drop out of school "prematurely", as if they rejected education. That former Christians no longer play along with goofy, unfounded beliefs is a problem for the Christian who can't show he speaks truth.

When certain atheists keep raising objections that inaccurately portrays Christianity then I can only presume that they lack an understanding of Christianity, philosophy, and science. Also, it's likely that this misunderstanding existed before they left Christianity and influenced their decision.

For example, lets take your request of truth confirmation for Christian beliefs which is built on faulty expectations. The Bible contains biographies, history, ordinary and extraordinary experiences, non-literal genres, etc. Just how do you expect all of these aspects to be proven true? Do you expect that for all ancient writings? How can science deal with these matters? Isn't religion/experience necessary for the areas of reality where science is not adequate?

You see a lot of times it's seen as a virtue by skeptics to always request scientific or empirical verification, but in reality it's unreasonable when you consider the factors or questions that I brought up.

Hmm ... human parthenogenesis and flying zombies ... I wonder why people keep misunderstanding.

[Divine Insight]

For example, lets take your request of truth confirmation for Christian beliefs which is built on faulty expectations. The Bible contains biographies, history, ordinary and extraordinary experiences, non-literal genres, etc. Just how do you expect all of these aspects to be proven true?

I don't expect them to be proven to be true. All I need to do is recognize that they aren't even sensible at all. I have serious problems with the story of the "Fall from Grace" and it doesn't make any sense to me at all that any all-wise super-intelligent entity could be as utterly clueless and ignorant to behave as the God depicted in these ancient barbaric fables. To the contrary, the behavior of the God in these fables appears to be precisely as ignorant and unwise as the barbarians who wrote these stories. Thus providing me with evidence that the Bible was indeed written by ignorant barbarians, and not some all-wise God.

Do you expect that for all ancient writings?

All ancient writings don't claim to be speaking for a supposedly all-wise God whilst making extremely ignorant accusations and claims about this supposedly all-wise God.

How can science deal with these matters? Isn't religion/experience necessary for the areas of reality where science is not adequate?

No, religion is not necessary and many atheists have already proven this to be true beyond any shadow of a doubt.

You see a lot of times it's seen as a virtue by skeptics to always request scientific or empirical verification, but in reality it's unreasonable when you consider the factors or questions that I brought up.

I personally don't require or ask for scientific evidence for the Bible. To the contrary we already have scientific evidence that the Bible is necessarily false in all of it's claims. So science has already proven the Bible to be false claims.

However, on top of the scientific evidence that the Bible is false, I can also clearly see that it necessarily has to be false because it portrays a supposedly all-wise, super-intelligent and supposedly benevolent entity to behave in totally unwise, and ignorant ways that are far from benevolent. So even if I didn't have the scientific evidence that the Bible is false, I would still need to reject it on the obvious grounds that no intelligent super-entity could be as stupid as the Bible requires.

The fallacy of the Bible is, IMHO, 100% certain.

Some people will argue that we can't know anything with 100% certainty, but I hold that this itself is a misguided and false notion. We can indeed know that with 100% certainty there there cannot be a whole number solution to the square root of 2. And as far as I can see, the Bible has proven itself to be necessarily false to that same level of certainty. It simply cannot be true verbatim as written. And even Christian apologists and theologians openly confess to this. Only extreme fundamentalists like Ken Ham believe that the Bible is 100% infallible and true verbatim as written literally.

But the vast majority of Christian theologians and apologists have already given up on trying to hold that position as being anywhere near reasonable.

[OpenYourEyes]

There are good reasons for questioning and even rejecting conventional Christianity other than "misunderstandings" of the teachings of the Bible, the Church or historical and literary context.

I know since the 1800s, a school of thought referred to as 'liberal theology' has sought to eliminate some of the fundamental/traditional interpretations of the Bible but I don't see one school of thought (liberal vs traditional/fundamentalist) being any better than the other inherently. I would only judge on a case-by-case basis based on the best biblical exegesis for a particular passage.

What evidence outside of "the Bible tells me so", for example is there to support the Church claim that "Jesus is God"? Even the Bible is contradictory on that matter alone, not to mention many others.

And hadn't we ought to establish first that the Bible is infallible and inerrant? And the Church?

Is there any evidence at all, for example, from science or cultural or archelological history to prove, in fact that "Jesus is God"?

And when a person starts questioning that notion, and does further investigation, and finds that even the Bible never says those three plain words that "Jesus is God" nor does it even ever have Jesus saying "I am God", can one be fairly blamed for becoming a "drop-out" from orthodoxy, if not from Christianity entirely?

Not to mention when one considers the other manifold errors and contradictions in the Bible, and even Church variance from the Bible?

Whether one can still retain one's theism, (as a Deist, a Christian heretic, a Jew, Muslim or in some other manner) or goes all the way into the arms of atheism is another matter.[/quote]

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1 by OpenYourEyes]

One recent example is of a former Christian who drew a negative conclusion about some aspect of Christianity based on an inadequate answer that their professor told them.

Actually no, that answer my teacher gave me was NOT a factor in my leaving the religion. Perhaps next time you can ask?

Ironically, this person dropped out of their class on religion.

Now where have I EVER said I was a drop out of classes? I dropped the RELIGION, but not my academic classes.
The one topic that I didn't press my teacher on, at the time, was why no female priests in Roman Catholicism.
This is not me saying that I simply never talked with my teacher about any other aspect of Christianity.

I expect an apology on this, because you made it seem like I was a person who dropped classes, when in fact, I never have.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 6 by OpenYourEyes]

The Bible contains biographies, history, ordinary and extraordinary experiences, non-literal genres, etc. Just how do you expect all of these aspects to be proven true? Do you expect that for all ancient writings? How can science deal with these matters? Isn't religion/experience necessary for the areas of reality where science is not adequate?

You see a lot of times it's seen as a virtue by skeptics to always request scientific or empirical verification, but in reality it's unreasonable when you consider the factors or questions that I brought up.

When I encounter these sections of the Bible that we simply cannot verify, I realize that I cannot justify having a positive belief that they are true. What evidence is provided that would justify my believing that Satan did have a bet with God over Job, that horns were used to blow down a city's walls, that Jacob wrestled with God?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 7 by Elijah John]

Whether one can still retain one's theism, (as a Deist, a Christian heretic, a Jew, Muslim or in some other manner) or goes all the way into the arms of atheism is another matter.

I went through various stages after I initially dropped the religion. For a while, I was a deist. I believed that there was some sort of Gaia-like entity managing life on the planet, something that didn't care about worship.

Of course, if OpenYourEyes had asked me about this instead of making wildly inaccurate statements about myself, I would have been only too happy to answer. As it is, I consider this thread a 'poisoning of the well'.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1 by OpenYourEyes]

Notice here no real effort was put in to look for answers either because the person didn't know how and where to look or this person just gave up. This is very common sign/pattern of someone who doesn't know how to deal with doubt.

OpenYourEyes, if you apologize and then deign to ASK me about my life with Christianity and/or my reasons for leaving, I will be only too happy to divulge.
However, what I find insulting (and only a repeated phenomenon from those who who get their cues from apologist websites) are these 'discussions' where no attempt is made on contacting the person you are talking about, to get their side and to make sure you are representing them accurately.
Instead no, I'm characterized as a high school dropout, someone who drops classes, someone who made no real effort to learn about the religion they dropped.
So tell me...you indicated in previous threads that you went to apologist websites. Did they ever tell you to actually ask the non-believer?

[Danmark]

The Christian drop-out leaves Christianity usually due to some problem or conflict that they encounter with their belief system and then they give up prematurely. I think most people are accustomed to hearing about and assuming that many atheists leave the faith based on rational reasons but then when I press them I find that many of the key factors that should be considered in the decision are missing. There tends to be a lack of proper understanding of God and the Bible, a lack of familiarity with Christian apologetics, and even on conducting research into their objections.
....

This is certainly not my experience. I have no idea how you could come up with this, other than it reflects your personal perspective. You have offered no objective facts to support this. I'll offer some that show the opposite is true.

Many atheists have read the entire Bible, used to be preachers, Sunday school teachers, or missionaries, were raised in Christian families and attended church all of their lives until their mid-twenties or later. They left their faith when they realized the Bible was just written by men, had many conflicts and contradictions, and was full of false prophesy, such as the prediction Christ would return by about 100 CE.

Many people simply studied their way out of their faith by reading about the Bible from external sources, including sources intended to strength their faith. We see this scenario play out in dozens of books written by former Christians. The most consistent thing I have seen is that exposure to the Bible and Christians and a general education is the most surefire way to lose one's faith. The ultimate irony is the pharisaical hypocrisy that Jesus preached against is displayed by people calling themselves 'Christians.'

I find just the opposite of what you claim is true. Most Christians do not understand their own faith, they just go to church because they've always done so and they get comfort there or they like the social aspect. Then they get defensive about it and cheer for it the way the cheer for their favorite sports team. They remain because of inertia, not knowledge.

I can document this by reference to how religious affiliation correlates with the country one is raised in. See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religions_by_country

My experience is that people remain with the faith of their youth because they do not
Open Their Eyes.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 1 by OpenYourEyes]

Notice here no real effort was put in to look for answers either because the person didn't know how and where to look or this person just gave up. This is very common sign/pattern of someone who doesn't know how to deal with doubt.

OpenYourEyes, if you apologize and then deign to ASK me about my life with Christianity and/or my reasons for leaving, I will be only too happy to divulge.

Exactly! The OP is itself an insulting assumption and an example of the 'Christian' attitude that convinces people to leave the Church.

[OpenYourEyes]

[Replying to post 1 by OpenYourEyes]

Notice here no real effort was put in to look for answers either because the person didn't know how and where to look or this person just gave up. This is very common sign/pattern of someone who doesn't know how to deal with doubt.

OpenYourEyes, if you apologize and then deign to ASK me about my life with Christianity and/or my reasons for leaving, I will be only too happy to divulge.

Exactly! The OP is itself an insulting assumption and an example of the 'Christian' attitude that convinces people to leave the Church.

The opening post is my theory, based on many observations on this forums and others, to explain why some former Christians claim to leave Christianity because of reason but yet they can not even portray Christianity accurately. I've attributed this common occurrence as being a result of Christians who lack a good foundation for their belief and also lack the resources (intellectually-based) to handle their doubts and they subsequently drop-out or leave prematurely.

I know that firsthand that handling doubt and having the resources (or the willingness to research) works because that's how I've handled my doubts. That's also part of how some atheists have made the transition into becoming Christians. So clearly my point has some validity.