Where did the 3 Kings go?

[marco]

We learn that the baby Jesus was visited by three kings, wise men or magi. They came to see him and then disappeared into the shadows of history or fiction. So we ask:

What was the point of their visit?
In what way did it affect history?
If they are just symbolic, unreal figures - what is their purpose?

More importantly, does this mythology - if it is mythology - destroy belief in Christ?

[Blastcat]

Sure we can make all kinds of hypotheses, but not be able to prove any of them. We can all speculate, and in this case, it's all we have.


Let's not pretend to know what we really don't know. That's what the faithful do.

People like Einstein formulated hypotheses before they were verified. All over the place we have wonderful hypotheses yet to be proved.
Fermat wrote in the margin of his geometry book:
"I have today discovered a wonderful proof but the margin is too small to contain it." This set a challenge for mathematicians for centuries. It is believed the brilliant Fermat probably hadn't proved his claim. But where would we be without people brave enough to hypothesise?

(Fermat's claim has been proved, after a fashion, but very few follow it.)
Warm regards

That's great. But the only time to believe is After we have proof not before..




We aren't talking get about science here, but the lack of a time/mind-reading machinezam:-)Z



So that's what we need right now

[marco]

That's great. But the only time to believe is After we have proof not before..

If I recall correctly, when news of verification came through Einstein was with a student and she was delighted. I think Einstein said he knew anyway, before the verification.

We aren't talking get about science here, but the lack of a time/mind-reading machinezam:

Ah, but we must be careful we don't have one rule for science and another one for others. Fairness in all things, blastcat.

[Blastcat]

That's great. But the only time to believe is After we have proof not before..

If I recall correctly, when news of verification came through Einstein was with a student and she was delighted. I think Einstein said he knew anyway, before the verification.
I would say that Einstein was confident and wrong to believe before the data.

We aren't talking get about science here, but the lack of a time/mind-reading machinezam:

Ah, but we must be careful we don't have one rule for science and another one for others. Fairness in all things, blastcat.




Religion has no epistemological rules. Science and reason does.

[marco]

I would say that Einstein was confident and wrong to believe before the data.

It's called putting your money where your mouth is, or in some circles, being confident in one's beliefs.

Religion has no epistemological rules. Science and reason does.

Religion may not but some religious people most certainly do. Jesuits, for example, dig deep into knowledge.

But we're being rude to the Magi. The theory was that they were related to a constellation. We are assuming that the gospel account is based on something - which is not necessarily a good assumption with gospel stories. So saying they are related to some astronomical set-up is a clever idea, in contrast to the suggestion that they got on to their camels and followed a star to see a baby king, then vanished.

[Willum]

[Replying to marco]

Sorry, I am basing my "theory" that myths are copied from one another...
Sam hain, Halloween, Christmas, etc..

But it is hardy mine, or a hypothesis. It's simply true.

Now whether Jesus stole the myth... well, what would constitute proof? Admission of guilt? LOL.

That the dates match, the myths match, that the OT stole so many myths, is good enough for me... unless you can show Jesus and the magi existed at all...

But it is hardy something I conceived...

[Blastcat]

Moderator removed one-line, non-contributing post. Kindly refrain from making posts that contribute nothing to debate and/or simply express agreement / disagreement or make other frivolous remarks.

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[Claire Evans]

I believe the magi were spies for Herod to give away the location of Jesus. They were obviously to report back to Herod but perhaps they changed their minds and never got back to Herod and fled.

That's a novel idea. Why would Herod anticipate Christ's kingship and send spies to view a baby?

Once Christ claimed to be a king, then action might be taken. The baby, so far, has said nothing. In the Islamic account he did speak shortly after being delivered, if I recall correctly. Mystifying.

According to the Bible, Herod knew of the prophecy of a king.

Isaiah 7:14

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 9:6

14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 2:

1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judæa in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.

4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.

5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judæa: for thus it is written by the prophet,

6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.

8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.

9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.

10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.

11 ¶And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.

13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

16 ¶Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 37 by Claire Evans]

Matthew 2:
16 ¶Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.

In the original Greek manuscripts these individuals were not called "wise men" at all. They were called "Magi." The Magi are known to history as Zoroasteran priests from Persia who were renowned for their great learning and spiritual abilities. Because they were believed to have supernatural powers their name "Magi" has given rise to the English words "magic" and "magician." In Zoroasteran belief the Saoshyant or savior of mankind who was a direct descendant of the prophet Zoroaster was due to be born. This savior would sit at the right hand ot God (Ahura Mazda in Persian belief) and act as a judge of mankind at the time of final judgement and the final reconstruction of the world when Ahura Mazda would eliminate evil and reward the righteous. Gospel Matthew's reference of the journey of the Magi from the east to worship the newly born Jesus was intended as a signal to the Jewish Pharisees (Farsi-Parsi, the Persian believers in Jewish society) that Jesus represented the fulfillment of ancient Persian prophesy as well as Jewish prophesy.

Greek Interlinear Bible
Matthew 2:
[1] OF-THE YET JESUS being generated (born) in BETHLEHEM of-the JUDEA IN DAYS OF-HEROD THE KING BE-PERCEIVING MAGIans (magi) FROM risings (east) BESIDE-BECAME INTO JERUSALEM. http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... f/mat2.pdf

Wikipedia
Magi
Magi (/ˈmeɪdʒaɪ/; Latin plural of magus) is a term, used since at least the 6th century BCE, to denote followers of Zoroastrianism or Zoroaster. The earliest known usage of the word Magi is in the trilingual inscription written by Darius the Great, known as the Behistun Inscription. Old Persian texts, pre-dating the Hellenistic period, refer to a Magus as a Zurvanic, and presumably Zoroastrian, priest.

Pervasive throughout the Eastern Mediterranean and Western Asia until late antiquity and beyond, mágos, "Magian" or "magician", was influenced by (and eventually displaced) Greek goēs (γόης), the older word for a practitioner of magic, to include astrology, alchemy and other forms of esoteric knowledge. This association was in turn the product of the Hellenistic fascination for (Pseudo‑)Zoroaster, who was perceived by the Greeks to be the "Chaldean", "founder" of the Magi and "inventor" of both astrology and magic, a meaning that still survives in the modern-day words "magic" and "magician".

In English, the term "magi" is most commonly used in reference to the "μάγοι" from the east who visit Jesus in Chapter 2 of the Gospel of Matthew Matthew 2:1, and are now often translated as "wise men" in English versions.[1] The plural "magi" entered the English language from Latin around 1200, in reference to these. The singular appears considerably later, in the late 14th century, when it was borrowed from Old French in the meaning magician together with magic.

In Christian tradition

The word mágos (Greek) and its variants appears in both the Old and New Testaments.[9] Ordinarily this word is translated "magician" or "sorcerer" in the sense of illusionist or fortune-teller, and this is how it is translated in all of its occurrences (e.g. Acts 13:6) except for the Gospel of Matthew, where, depending on translation, it is rendered "wise man" (KJV, RSV) or left untranslated as Magi, typically with an explanatory note (NIV). However, early church fathers, such as St. Justin, Origen, St. Augustine and St. Jerome, did not make an exception for the Gospel, and translated the word in its ordinary sense, i.e. as "magician".

The Gospel of Matthew states that magi visited the infant Jesus shortly after his birth (2:1–2:12). The gospel describes how magi from the east were notified of the birth of a king in Judaea by the appearance of his star. Upon their arrival in Jerusalem, they visited King Herod to determine the location of the king of the Jews's birthplace. Herod, disturbed, told them that he had not heard of the child, but informed them of a prophecy that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. He then asked the magi to inform him when they find the infant so that Herod may also worship him. Guided by the Star of Bethlehem, the wise men found the baby Jesus in a house; Matthew does not say if the house was in Bethlehem. They worshipped him, and presented him with "gifts of gold and of frankincense and of myrrh." (2.11) In a dream they are warned not to return to Herod, and therefore return to their homes by taking another route. Since its composition in the late 1st century, numerous apocryphal stories have embellished the gospel's account. Matthew 2:16 implies that Herod learned from the wise men that up to two years had passed since the birth, which is why all male children two years or younger were slaughtered.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magi

Wikipedia
Saoshyant
Saoshyant (Avestan: Saoš�iiaṇt̰, IPA: [sɒ�ʃjʌnt][citation needed]) is a figure in Zoroastrianism who brings about the Frashokereti or final renovation of the world. The name literally means "one who brings benefit" in Avestan and is also used as a common noun

In scripture
In the Gathas, the most sacred hymns of Zoroastrianism, believed to have been composed by Zoroaster himself, the term is used to refer to the prophet's own mission and to his community of followers, who "bring benefit" to humanity. Saoshyant may have been a term originally applied to Zoroaster himself (e.g. Yasna 46.3)[1]
The common noun, which also appears in the Younger Avesta (e.g. Yasna 61.5), is also used as a generic to denote religious leaders and another common noun airyaman "member of community" is an epithet of these saoshyants. In contrast, the standing epithet of the saviour figure(s) is astvat-Ó™rÓ™ta "embodying righteousness,"[2] which has arta/asha "Truth" as an element of the name.[3] These saviours are those who follow Ahura Mazda's teaching "with acts inspired by asha" (Yasna 48.12).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saoshyant

[Willum]

[Replying to Claire Evans]

According to the Bible, Herod the Elder, murdered all the infants in his domain to prevent the savior from being.

Of course, despite this genocide, it is not recorded in Rome, or in any part of the East for that Matter. Herod is, legends of his barbarity are, but no genocide of the children.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

This is Caesar Augustus.

Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judæa in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

Jesus of Nazareth, and Nazareth is not in Bethlehem.

Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

The only ones who says Jesus is king of the Jews, are Christians.
Augustus was king of the Jews.

And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

Not to beat a dead horse, but Jesus never has nor ever will rule Israel.

When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.

Because they knew Winter was ending.

And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

They gave aphrodisiacs to a child. How disturbing.

And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.

Well thank goodness, except Herod kills nobles who defy him, especially in dreams.

Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.

And this never happened, and here we are, full circle.

[bluethread]

Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judæa in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

Jesus of Nazareth, and Nazareth is not in Bethlehem.

Yeshua was born in Bet-lechem, just outside of Yerushalem, while Miriam and Yoseph were observing the pilgrimage feast of Succot. They then returned home to Nazareth after His Brit Milah.