I giving a chance for everybody to do his best in criticizing Quran and I Hope he or she read enough about it
Good Luck
Is Quran the word of God ?!
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mms20102
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Is Quran the word of God ?!
Post #1Many guys reached to point they need to debate the existence of Quran as a true revelation .
I giving a chance for everybody to do his best in criticizing Quran and I Hope he or she read enough about it
Good Luck
I giving a chance for everybody to do his best in criticizing Quran and I Hope he or she read enough about it
Good Luck
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mms20102
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Post #11
[Replying to post 10 by snake]
ok first is the bible is the bible the word of god > which bible > king james version > I thought you speak about the bible jesus revealed ,,, sorry king james is not the true word of god
according " SCHOLARS OF THE HIGHEST EMINENCE "
well in quran its said that Christians have replaced the word of god and that's can explain the " GRAVE DEFECTS " according to your schoolars .
can the quran be the word of god and the bible is not yes quran didn't say the bible is perfect it said its people falsified the words of god yet we believe there were a pure bible one day
what is needed to be mentioned is that those scholars removed the verse saying god had a son and considered it as a fabrication ! I can state you are a catholic indeed
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity Matthew 7:21
who is jesus speaking to in this verse ?
ok first is the bible is the bible the word of god > which bible > king james version > I thought you speak about the bible jesus revealed ,,, sorry king james is not the true word of god
according " SCHOLARS OF THE HIGHEST EMINENCE "
well in quran its said that Christians have replaced the word of god and that's can explain the " GRAVE DEFECTS " according to your schoolars .
can the quran be the word of god and the bible is not yes quran didn't say the bible is perfect it said its people falsified the words of god yet we believe there were a pure bible one day
what is needed to be mentioned is that those scholars removed the verse saying god had a son and considered it as a fabrication ! I can state you are a catholic indeed
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity Matthew 7:21
who is jesus speaking to in this verse ?
Post #12
Well Jesus spoke Aramaic
-the early church spoke Hebrew so already there were a translation from Aramaic into Hebrew.
-then you get the hole New testament in Greek so another translation is going on.
-the main bible the church used for the longest period of time was the Latin bible they call it the voltage bible of the early church
so you have all these translations going on changes of words in to different languages after the Latin translation it was again translated into German then English nsn,vs,sv and all those translations who knows what today but most important we should look at is that we have copies off all the manuscripts that was copied into different languages dated very long back...
(1) 5500 Greek New Testaments Manuscript
(2) 10000 Latin Manuscript
(3) 5000 Coptic Manuscript
(4) 36000 quotation Manuscripts
All these Manuscript are enough to reconcile the hole new Testaments
the disciples of Jesus were multilingual can speak all these languages as well.
Well if anyone can alter or change the world of GOD (Allah) then you contradicting your Qur'an inst the bible the word of Allah which the Qur'an affirms that can not be change or alter.....
We revealed the reminder and lo, we truly are its guarded guardians the torah and Injil (bible) Sura 15;9
There is none to alter the words of (GOD) Allah Sura 6;34
There is no changing of the words of Allah Sura 10;64
We sent Jesus confirming that which was revealed before him in the torah and bestowed on him the gospel wherein is guidance and light Sura 5;46
Believed in GOD (Allah) and his messenger Muhammad and the scripture which he revealed to his messenger the Qur'an and the scripture which he revealed a fore time the bible Sura 4;136
Sure we did reveal the torah wherein is guidance and light Sura 5;44
if it were altered or change was this by the Jews or by the Christians? since neither were on speaking terms with each other
the Jews say the Christians follow nothing (TRUE) Christians say the Jews follow nothing (true) YET bolt are readers of the scriptures Sura 2;113 also see Sura 5;82 so how can the Jews and Christians agree to change the every single book (bible) identically?why was there no record of this happening and why did nobody stop trying to stop them or hide the (originals) authentic bibles THE NEW TESTAMENTS were widely distributed as soon as they were written.
the bible itself didn't make such claim that its prefect the bible message was that Jesus has risen from the grave there fore we... believe... that was the Gospel message that god had risen Jesus from the grave confirming his claims about who he is.
the Qur'an makes that claim that its perfect and its a miracle to exist today still...but Muslims don't have the original Qur'an in existence today so how can that be a miracle
and no i am not a catholic i don't belong to a denomination i am a christian follower of Jesus Christ.
the answer to your question:
MATT 7 21-23
The two questions most frequently asked about Matthew 7:21-23 comes about because the verses seem to contradict two strongly held beliefs—one cannot lose his salvation and anyone who performs miracles must be from God. As we will see, one of these beliefs is based on scriptural truth and the other is not. While the true believer cannot lose his salvation, not all miracles are performed by true believers.
Jesus is speaking here near the end of His Sermon on the Mount (chapters 5–7). Beginning in verse 13, Jesus discourses at length on the subject of true faith vs. false professions, using the technique of contrast and comparison. Verses 13-14 describe two paths on which people walk through life, the broad road that leads to eternal destruction and the narrow path that leads to eternal life. He introduces here the concept of the “many� and the “few� that He will return to in verses 21-23.
-the early church spoke Hebrew so already there were a translation from Aramaic into Hebrew.
-then you get the hole New testament in Greek so another translation is going on.
-the main bible the church used for the longest period of time was the Latin bible they call it the voltage bible of the early church
so you have all these translations going on changes of words in to different languages after the Latin translation it was again translated into German then English nsn,vs,sv and all those translations who knows what today but most important we should look at is that we have copies off all the manuscripts that was copied into different languages dated very long back...
(1) 5500 Greek New Testaments Manuscript
(2) 10000 Latin Manuscript
(3) 5000 Coptic Manuscript
(4) 36000 quotation Manuscripts
All these Manuscript are enough to reconcile the hole new Testaments
the disciples of Jesus were multilingual can speak all these languages as well.
Well if anyone can alter or change the world of GOD (Allah) then you contradicting your Qur'an inst the bible the word of Allah which the Qur'an affirms that can not be change or alter.....
We revealed the reminder and lo, we truly are its guarded guardians the torah and Injil (bible) Sura 15;9
There is none to alter the words of (GOD) Allah Sura 6;34
There is no changing of the words of Allah Sura 10;64
We sent Jesus confirming that which was revealed before him in the torah and bestowed on him the gospel wherein is guidance and light Sura 5;46
Believed in GOD (Allah) and his messenger Muhammad and the scripture which he revealed to his messenger the Qur'an and the scripture which he revealed a fore time the bible Sura 4;136
Sure we did reveal the torah wherein is guidance and light Sura 5;44
if it were altered or change was this by the Jews or by the Christians? since neither were on speaking terms with each other
the Jews say the Christians follow nothing (TRUE) Christians say the Jews follow nothing (true) YET bolt are readers of the scriptures Sura 2;113 also see Sura 5;82 so how can the Jews and Christians agree to change the every single book (bible) identically?why was there no record of this happening and why did nobody stop trying to stop them or hide the (originals) authentic bibles THE NEW TESTAMENTS were widely distributed as soon as they were written.
the bible itself didn't make such claim that its prefect the bible message was that Jesus has risen from the grave there fore we... believe... that was the Gospel message that god had risen Jesus from the grave confirming his claims about who he is.
the Qur'an makes that claim that its perfect and its a miracle to exist today still...but Muslims don't have the original Qur'an in existence today so how can that be a miracle
and no i am not a catholic i don't belong to a denomination i am a christian follower of Jesus Christ.
the answer to your question:
MATT 7 21-23
The two questions most frequently asked about Matthew 7:21-23 comes about because the verses seem to contradict two strongly held beliefs—one cannot lose his salvation and anyone who performs miracles must be from God. As we will see, one of these beliefs is based on scriptural truth and the other is not. While the true believer cannot lose his salvation, not all miracles are performed by true believers.
Jesus is speaking here near the end of His Sermon on the Mount (chapters 5–7). Beginning in verse 13, Jesus discourses at length on the subject of true faith vs. false professions, using the technique of contrast and comparison. Verses 13-14 describe two paths on which people walk through life, the broad road that leads to eternal destruction and the narrow path that leads to eternal life. He introduces here the concept of the “many� and the “few� that He will return to in verses 21-23.
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mms20102
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Post #13
I guess I will reply first things of quran
1- God states He doesn't change his words > Quran is not changed for 1450 not a single letter
2- God didn't say it protects the bible it was speaking about Quran and you can get sure by testing the same word in other places sorry you misunderstood
3- Sure bible and torah are guidance and light and sue I believe both were received by god's massengers but where is the bible of jesus and the turah of moses ? both were edited heavily
now regarding Christianity I will not debate here I have made posts for each point
1- is bible the word of god ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... d60865f06f
2- Is Jesus God ?!!
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... d60865f06f
you will find my 13 point to reply at page 7
3- Was Jesus crucified ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... d60865f06f
I made detailed prove with 30 points ! to reply
Farewell brother
1- God states He doesn't change his words > Quran is not changed for 1450 not a single letter
2- God didn't say it protects the bible it was speaking about Quran and you can get sure by testing the same word in other places sorry you misunderstood
3- Sure bible and torah are guidance and light and sue I believe both were received by god's massengers but where is the bible of jesus and the turah of moses ? both were edited heavily
now regarding Christianity I will not debate here I have made posts for each point
1- is bible the word of god ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... d60865f06f
2- Is Jesus God ?!!
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... d60865f06f
you will find my 13 point to reply at page 7
3- Was Jesus crucified ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... d60865f06f
I made detailed prove with 30 points ! to reply
Farewell brother
Post #14
[Replying to mms20102]
my friend, my friend, my friend
you keep on referring to the book of Jesus when i just know explain to you about our scripture we have,dating back to the time of Jesus...Muslims don't have the original Quran so what does that mean Allahs word is lost for ever let me explain:
quranic verses stop after muhammad death shortly after Muhammad death abu bakr needed to suppressed a rebellion and he sent many huffaz (people who memorize portion of the quran) to fight at the battle of yamama many of these huffaz died
abu bkr decided that it was time to gather all what remained of the quran in order to prevent of more being lost and he appointed zaid ibn thabit to this task after zaid completed the task and collected it it remained in abu bukrs possession until his death after his death it was pass to caliph umar when umar died it was given to hafsa a widow of Muhammad (sahih al-bukhari 4986)
uthman ordered that hafsa copy of the quran along with all the known textual materials should be gathered together so that an official version might be compiled when this process was finish and a completed text of the quran was done uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied..and he ordered that all the other original quranic materials whether written in fragments manuscript or whole should be burn to cover up all the textual variances ( SAHIH AL-BUKHARI 4987)
SO stop this wheres the book of Jesus where you Muslims don't even have the original quran ,this is what we have to start with a altered version of the quran. i will answer your other questions tomorrow don't have the time right know.
my friend, my friend, my friend
you keep on referring to the book of Jesus when i just know explain to you about our scripture we have,dating back to the time of Jesus...Muslims don't have the original Quran so what does that mean Allahs word is lost for ever let me explain:
quranic verses stop after muhammad death shortly after Muhammad death abu bakr needed to suppressed a rebellion and he sent many huffaz (people who memorize portion of the quran) to fight at the battle of yamama many of these huffaz died
abu bkr decided that it was time to gather all what remained of the quran in order to prevent of more being lost and he appointed zaid ibn thabit to this task after zaid completed the task and collected it it remained in abu bukrs possession until his death after his death it was pass to caliph umar when umar died it was given to hafsa a widow of Muhammad (sahih al-bukhari 4986)
uthman ordered that hafsa copy of the quran along with all the known textual materials should be gathered together so that an official version might be compiled when this process was finish and a completed text of the quran was done uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied..and he ordered that all the other original quranic materials whether written in fragments manuscript or whole should be burn to cover up all the textual variances ( SAHIH AL-BUKHARI 4987)
SO stop this wheres the book of Jesus where you Muslims don't even have the original quran ,this is what we have to start with a altered version of the quran. i will answer your other questions tomorrow don't have the time right know.
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mms20102
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Post #15
[Replying to post 14 by snake]
your information is so little you need to do many home work before speaking
this speaks about my prophet
https://mega.nz/#!ONE2xAJC!Esc-lRH2kRv4 ... Y3Skx1h6_Y
those are comments from non-muslim scholars
https://www.al-islam.org/authenticity-q ... lims-admit
this book is for authenticity of Quran
https://www.al-islam.org/printpdf/book/ ... html/10715
please read carefully then reply don't get armored by false claims and speak them as truth
your information is so little you need to do many home work before speaking
this speaks about my prophet
https://mega.nz/#!ONE2xAJC!Esc-lRH2kRv4 ... Y3Skx1h6_Y
those are comments from non-muslim scholars
https://www.al-islam.org/authenticity-q ... lims-admit
this book is for authenticity of Quran
https://www.al-islam.org/printpdf/book/ ... html/10715
please read carefully then reply don't get armored by false claims and speak them as truth
Post #16
[Replying to post 15 by mms20102]
Well due to limited time i couldn't provide more information but ya first i want to say i don't want you to think i am trying to bash Islam a religion that is so dear to your heart and i know that you not doing the same as you know bolt of our religion cont be right only ONE have the truth of GOD so yah......
as we see disputes among Muhammad scholars (disciples) not all Muslims approved of the new Qur'an indeed some of Muhammad top teachers rejected Zaid version.
Muhammad told his followers to learn the recitation of the Qur'an from four, from abdullah, abu hudhfaifa , mu,adh bin jabal and ubaid bin ka"b ( sahih al-bukhari 3808) Ibn masud (first on Muhammad list) held that the Qur'an should only have 111 chapters today's Qur'an have 114 chapters
Ibn Masud went so far as calling the the final edition of the Qur'an a deception he said the people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur'an
I love it better to read it according to the recitation of him (Muhammad) whom i love more the Zayd Ibn Thabit ( Ibn Sa"d kitab Al-tabagat al-kabir vol 2, page 444)
Umar said Ubayy was the best of us in the recitation of the Qur'an yet we leave some of what he recites....Ubayy said i have taken it from the mount of allah"s messenger and will not leave it for any whatever.(sahih Al-Bukari 5005)
due to this disputes among Muhammads hand pick reciters Muslims are facing a dilemma.
MISSING CHAPTERS
Simply knowing the facts about such disputes is enough to dismiss the claim of the Qur'an being perfectly preserved....
Well due to limited time i couldn't provide more information but ya first i want to say i don't want you to think i am trying to bash Islam a religion that is so dear to your heart and i know that you not doing the same as you know bolt of our religion cont be right only ONE have the truth of GOD so yah......
as we see disputes among Muhammad scholars (disciples) not all Muslims approved of the new Qur'an indeed some of Muhammad top teachers rejected Zaid version.
Muhammad told his followers to learn the recitation of the Qur'an from four, from abdullah, abu hudhfaifa , mu,adh bin jabal and ubaid bin ka"b ( sahih al-bukhari 3808) Ibn masud (first on Muhammad list) held that the Qur'an should only have 111 chapters today's Qur'an have 114 chapters
Ibn Masud went so far as calling the the final edition of the Qur'an a deception he said the people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur'an
I love it better to read it according to the recitation of him (Muhammad) whom i love more the Zayd Ibn Thabit ( Ibn Sa"d kitab Al-tabagat al-kabir vol 2, page 444)
Umar said Ubayy was the best of us in the recitation of the Qur'an yet we leave some of what he recites....Ubayy said i have taken it from the mount of allah"s messenger and will not leave it for any whatever.(sahih Al-Bukari 5005)
due to this disputes among Muhammads hand pick reciters Muslims are facing a dilemma.
MISSING CHAPTERS
Simply knowing the facts about such disputes is enough to dismiss the claim of the Qur'an being perfectly preserved....
Post #18
[Replying to mms20102]
If GOD (allah) fails to protect his WORD the bible from corruption and PROTECT the Qur'an from corruption, then why does GOD keep on referring Muslims to a corrupt book the torah and the Injil (BIBLE)IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. example:
WE sent Jesus confirming that which was revealed before him in the torah and bestowed on him the gospel wherein is guidance and light (surah 5.46)
(the verse should've have been WHERE THERE USE TO BE GUIDANCE AND LIGHT but its not)
So Allah just cont protect his WORD the bible from corruption and allow the Jews and Christians to change his word bible over and over again then the Qur'an come 600 years later and he protect the Qur'an from corruption..
the important question is why would Allah trick people in believing it was Jesus on the cross when it wasn't him, to Christians this is the core message of the gospel Jesus died by crucifixion and resurrection and your Qur'an saying Allah deceives people in believing it was Jesus but it was not him so Allah started a false religion for no good reason even thou it wasn't true so Christianity is a corruption of false teachings so who triggered this false religion according to your Qur'an Allah is to blame here and miss leading people that's all that came from Allah deception
according to the Qur'an Jesus followers were Muslims to and they were also deceived by Allah so not only does Allah deceive the enemies of Jesus but also his followers as-well
you Muslims got a GOD who not only miss leads enemies of Jesus but his followers of Allah prophets as well how could any one be save if you Muslims follow the teachings of Muhammad and you believe Muhammad preach a GOD who willingly deceives people how do you know Allah isn't doing the something to you.
If GOD (allah) fails to protect his WORD the bible from corruption and PROTECT the Qur'an from corruption, then why does GOD keep on referring Muslims to a corrupt book the torah and the Injil (BIBLE)IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. example:
WE sent Jesus confirming that which was revealed before him in the torah and bestowed on him the gospel wherein is guidance and light (surah 5.46)
(the verse should've have been WHERE THERE USE TO BE GUIDANCE AND LIGHT but its not)
So Allah just cont protect his WORD the bible from corruption and allow the Jews and Christians to change his word bible over and over again then the Qur'an come 600 years later and he protect the Qur'an from corruption..
the important question is why would Allah trick people in believing it was Jesus on the cross when it wasn't him, to Christians this is the core message of the gospel Jesus died by crucifixion and resurrection and your Qur'an saying Allah deceives people in believing it was Jesus but it was not him so Allah started a false religion for no good reason even thou it wasn't true so Christianity is a corruption of false teachings so who triggered this false religion according to your Qur'an Allah is to blame here and miss leading people that's all that came from Allah deception
according to the Qur'an Jesus followers were Muslims to and they were also deceived by Allah so not only does Allah deceive the enemies of Jesus but also his followers as-well
you Muslims got a GOD who not only miss leads enemies of Jesus but his followers of Allah prophets as well how could any one be save if you Muslims follow the teachings of Muhammad and you believe Muhammad preach a GOD who willingly deceives people how do you know Allah isn't doing the something to you.
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mms20102
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Post #19
[Replying to post 16 by snake]
you give reference then you give general information if you want to reason your words I need a detailed reference not just general reference
in first sentence you said at sahih bukhari prophet muhamed said learn from 4 then you say a claim about the first person without a reference
Second you say you have no time how can I debate you with no time ?
Third do I understand from your speech that you accept that Quran and bible both from god and Mohamed is a prophet and the bible got errors ?
you give reference then you give general information if you want to reason your words I need a detailed reference not just general reference
in first sentence you said at sahih bukhari prophet muhamed said learn from 4 then you say a claim about the first person without a reference
Second you say you have no time how can I debate you with no time ?
Third do I understand from your speech that you accept that Quran and bible both from god and Mohamed is a prophet and the bible got errors ?
Re: Is Quran the word of God ?!
Post #20Luck doesn't come into it. If we are asking whether the Koran is the word of God it is senseless to take internal evidence. Of course there are many versions of the Koran translated into many languages but the premise is that the work is so beautiful it is unmistakeably the word of God. Presumably the sense does not change drastically when it is rendered in English, and the English version of the Koran hardly vies with Shakespeare as art.mms20102 wrote: Many guys reached to point they need to debate the existence of Quran as a true revelation .
I giving a chance for everybody to do his best in criticizing Quran and I Hope he or she read enough about it
Good Luck
Some of the verses are embarrassing; others are brutal, aimed at unbelievers. And of course we have the infamous passage where women are called inferior to men and, if they are disobedient, they should be beaten. If a god offered this advice then the god is not worthy of being heard. This would suggest the work is of human construction, not divine.
Everything hinges on where the book came from. It came from the dictation of Muhammad who alleged he spoke to some angel in a cave. A likely scenario! The same man revealed he'd travelled on a horse with wings. Another likely scenario. Eventually, through the craft of Muhammad's first wife, he was persuaded he'd got something from God.
So the Koran was born..... all based on the confusion and dreaming of an Arab trader.
So NO, the Koran is not the word of God.
