Evidence Evolutionist are Dead Wrong - Creation Reasonable

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Evidence Evolutionist are Dead Wrong - Creation Reasonable

Post #1

Post by theStudent »

Does science support the various teachings on the origin of life on earth?

Darwinism
Darwin's Theory of Evolution -
FAILED to provide conclusive evidence by
Mutations
— radical changes to living organisms at the genetic level — are said to be the “source of raw material for evolution.� Without significant changes occurring at this level, there is no change to the species at all, no evolution at all.
https://thecuriosityparadox.org/tag/mutations/

After a hundred years of experimentation, thousands of lab-induced mutations in multiplied millions of flies, and intelligent selection acting on those mutations, the world’s most brilliant minds have not been able to produce any different kinds of creatures from Drosophila.
http://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.a ... ticle=2501

P. Davis and D. Kenyon, Of Pandas and People (Dallas, Texas: Haughton Publishing Company, 1993)
Mutation does not introduce new levels of complexity, and it cannot be shown that it is a step in the right direction. Most observed mutations are harmful, and there is no experimental evidence to show that a new animal organism or even a novel structural feature has ever been produced from the raw material produced by mutation.
FAILED to provide conclusive evidence by
Genetic Evolution or Evolution by Natural Selection


Writer Tom Bethell commented: “Darwin made a mistake sufficiently serious to undermine his theory. And that mistake has only recently been recognized as such. . . . One organism may indeed be ‘fitter’ than another . . . This, of course, is not something which helps create the organism, . . . It is clear, I think, that there was something very, very wrong with such an idea.� Bethell added: “As I see it the conclusion is pretty staggering: Darwin’s theory, I believe, is on the verge of collapse.�
http://harpers.org/archive/1976/02/darwins-mistake/

Jonathan Wells
The Problem Of Evidence - 2009
Quote:
Darwin's followers now claim that they have "overwhelming evidence" for their theory, but despite 150 years of research no one has ever observed the origin of a new species by natural selection--much less the origin of new organs and body plans.

Not even modern genetics has solved the problem. No matter what we do to the genes of a fruit fly embryo, there are only three possible outcomes: a normal fruit fly, a defective fruit fly or a dead fruit fly. Darwin's claim that microevolution leads to macroevolution has never been empirically corroborated. Indeed, there is growing evidence that the claim is false.

Quote:
Science follows the evidence wherever it leads, but Darwinism does not. So the present controversy over evolution is not a war between science and religion. It is primarily a war between Darwinism and evidence - and the evidence will win.
http://www.discovery.org/a/9061

John Gliedman, "Miracle Mutations, " Science Digest, February 1982, p. 92.
Quote:
Speculation is free. We know nothing about these regulatory master genes.

Marcel P. Schutzenberger, [formerly with University of Paris], "Algorithms and the Neo-Darwinian Theory of Evolution", page 75, at the symposium, "Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation"
There is no chance (< 10^-1000) to see this mechanism [mutation-selection] appear spontaneously and, if it did, even less for it to remain...Thus, to conclude, we believe there is a considerable gap in the neo-Darwinian theory of evolution, and we believe this gap to be of such a nature that it cannot be bridged within the current conception of biology.
Sir Fred Hoyle [English Astronomer, Professor of Astronomy at Cambridge University], "Hoyle on Evolution", Nature, Vol. 294: 105 (November 12, 1981)
The chance that higher life forms might have emerged in this way is comparable with the chance that 'a tornado sweeping through a junk yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein'.
FAILED to provide conclusive evidence by
Fossils
records -

QUOTE:
NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC ON FOSSIL RECORD
Written by Administrator
Published: 16 April 2013
Last Updated on 27 February 2015

‘Illuminating but spotty, the fossil record is like a film of evolution from which 999 of every 1,000 frames have been lost on the cutting room floor.’
National Geographic, November p25

Editorial Comment:
[/b]When 99.9% of the fossil evidence for the theory of evolution is missing, you don’t even have a good hypothesis.[/b] (Ref. fossils, evidence, theory)

http://www.creationresearch.net/index.p ... 6&catid=13

To date, scientists worldwide have unearthed and cataloged some 200 million large fossils and billions of microfossils. Many researchers agree that this vast and detailed record shows that all the major groups of animals appeared suddenly and remained virtually unchanged, with many species disappearing as suddenly as they arrived.

After reviewing the evidence of the fossil record, biologist Jonathan Wells writes: “At the level of kingdoms, phyla, and classes, descent with modification from common ancestors is obviously not an observed fact. To judge from the fossil and molecular evidence, it’s not even a well-supported theory.�

Darwinism when tested by The scientific test

1. Perform the test
2. Observe what happens
3. Based on those observations, form a theory as to what may be true
4. Test the theory by further observations and by experiments
5. Watch to see if the predictions based on the theory are fulfilled

FAILED
to prove any tests to be a conclusive fact.

Sir Fred Hoyle, [Astronomer, Cosmologist, and Mathematician, Cambridge University]
The likelihood of the formation of life from inanimate matter is one to a number with 40,000 noughts after it ... It is big enough to bury Darwin and the whole theory of evolution ... if the beginnings of life were not random, they must therefore have been the product of purposeful intelligence.
Pierre-Paul Grasse [French zoologist], Evolution of Living Organisms, page 104 (New York: Academic Press, 1977)
What gambler would be crazy enough to play roulette with random evolution? The probability of dust carried by the wind reproducing Durer's 'Melancholia' is less infinitesimal than the probability of copy errors in the DNA molecule leading to the formation of the eye; besides, these errors had no relationship whatsoever with the function that the eye would have to perform or was starting to perform. There is no law against daydreaming, but science must not indulge in it.
Darwin confessed, "To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree."
http://www.darwins-theory-of-evolution.com/

Astronomer Robert Jastrow
...chemists have never succeeded in reproducing nature’s experiments on the creation of life out of nonliving matter.
Darwin’s Origin of Species (London, 1956)
Introduction to the centennial edition
W. R. Thompson (former director of the Commonwealth Institute of Biological Control, Ottawa, Canada)
...evidence is unsatisfactory and does not permit any certain conclusion.
The Star, (Johannesburg), April 20, 1982, p. 19.
C. Booker (London Times writer)
A century after Darwin’s death, we still have not the slightest demonstrable or even plausible idea of how evolution really took place.
The scientific magazine Discover - October 1980, p. 88
Evolution . . . is not only under attack by fundamentalist Christians, but is also being questioned by reputable scientists. Among paleontologists
John Gliedman, "Miracle Mutations, " Science Digest, February 1982, p. 92.
Some scientists are proposing even more rapid evolutionary changes and are now dealing quite seriously with ideas once popularized only in fiction.
Richard Goldschmidt, Material Basis of Evolution
nobody has ever succeeded in producing even one new species by the accumulation of micro-mutations. Darwin's theory of natural selection has never had any proof, yet it has been universally accepted.

"Organic soup" or "Primordial soup" hypothesis
FAILED to provide conclusive evidence by
Abiogenesis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramasinghe, Evolution from Space
... Life cannot have had a random beginning ... The trouble is that there are about two thousand enzymes, and the chance of obtaining them all in a random trial is only one part in 10 to the power of 40,000, an outrageously small probability that could not be faced even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup. If one is not prejudiced either by social beliefs or by a scientific training into the conviction that life originated on the Earth, this simple calculation wipes the idea entirely out of court ...
Ali Demirsoy, Kalitim ve Evrim (Inheritance and Evolution), page 39 (Ankara: Meteksan Publishing Co., 1984)
In fact, the probability of the formation of a protein and a nucleic acid (DNA-RNA) is a probability way beyond estimate. Furthermore, the chance of the emergence of a certain protein chain is so slight as to be called astronomic.
Abiogenesis when tested by The scientific test

1. Perform the test
2. Observe what happens
3. Based on those observations, form a theory as to what may be true
4. Test the theory by further observations and by experiments
5. Watch to see if the predictions based on the theory are fulfilled

FAILED
to prove any tests to be a conclusive fact.


Cosmic Evolution
FAILED to provide conclusive evidence by
the big bang


Conrad H. Waddington [Professor of Animal Genetics, University of Edinburgh], "The Listener" (London, November 13, 1952), in A. Koestler, The Ghost in the Machine, page 127 (1989 reprint, London: Arkana, 1967)
To suppose that the evolution of the wonderfully adapted biological mechanisms has depended only on a selection out of a haphazard set of variations, each produced by blind chance, is like suggesting that if we went on throwing bricks together into heaps, we should eventually be able to choose ourselves the most desirable house.
F. Hoyle, "The Universe: Past and Present Reflections," Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics, Vol. 20: 1-35, 15 (1982)
A spaceship approaches the Earth, but not close enough for its imaginary inhabitants to distinguish individual terrestrial animals. They see growing crops, roads, bridges, and a debate ensues. Are these chance formations or are they the products of an intelligence? It is not at all difficult to formulate examples of events with exceedingly low probabilities. A roulette wheel operates in a casino. A bystander notes the sequence of numbers thrown by the wheel over the course of a whole year. What is the chance that this particular sequence should have turned up? Well, not as small as 1 in 10^40000, but extremely small nonetheless. So there is nothing especially remarkable in a tiny probability. Yet it surely would be exceedingly remarkable if the sequence thrown by the roulette wheel in the course of a year should have an explicit mathematical significance, as for instance if the numbers turned out to form the digits of pi to an enormous number of decimal places. This is just the situation with a living cell which is not any old random jumble of chemicals.
Biologist Edwin Conkline
The probability of life originating from accident is comparable to the probability of the unabridged dictionary resulting from an explosion in a printing shop.
Cosmic Evolution when tested by The scientific test

1. Perform the test
2. Observe what happens
3. Based on those observations, form a theory as to what may be true
4. Test the theory by further observations and by experiments
5. Watch to see if the predictions based on the theory are fulfilled

FAILED
to prove any tests to be a conclusive fact.


Proving the theory of Evolution (that life on earth originated by chance) to be a fact, to date, is impossible.
George Howe, expert in biological sciences
The chance that useful DNA molecules would develop without a Designer are apparently zero. Then let me conclude by asking which came first - the DNA (which is essential for the synthesis of proteins) or the protein enzyme (DNA-polymerase) without which DNA synthesis is nil? ... there is virtually no chance that chemical 'letters' would spontaneously produce coherent DNA and protein 'words.
Biochemist George Waldf
One has only to contemplate the magnitude of this task to concede that the spontaneous generation of a living organism is impossible.
These theories also prove to be both illogical and unreasonable. They defy logic and reason.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Re: Evidence Evolutionist are Dead Wrong - Creation Reasonab

Post #21

Post by Blastcat »

theStudent wrote:

What's the TOE?
Could you verify please.
It's been described for 150 years. I think it's easy enough to find out what it is.
theStudent wrote:And since you are a reasonable guy, could you please point me to a post in these forums, or a website, that presents the facts that I have missed. Because I can't seem to find them, and it's not that I am not looking.
It's been 150 years of facts.
I use Google.

:)

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Re: Evidence Evolutionist are Dead Wrong - Creation Reasonab

Post #22

Post by Kenisaw »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 14 by Blastcat]

What's the TOE?
Could you verify please.

And since you are a reasonable guy, could you please point me to a post in these forums, or a website, that presents the facts that I have missed. Because I can't seem to find them, and it's not that I am not looking.
Where exactly have you looked? Tell me, honestly, have you have visited any university, library, or research institute anywhere on Earth specifically to learn about the scientific theory of evolution? Because everything you've posted so far has come from websites with "creation" in the website name or "god" is in their mission statement. In order to review the data and empirical information for the scientific theory of evolution, you'll need to pencil in a block of time on your calendar. I'd recommend 6 months to go through the fossil and geologic data. Maybe another 3 months for the biological and 3 months for the morphological. The genetic I can't even say because I'm still looking at it myself. This is not a joke. There is a literal mountain of evidence that supports the theory of evolution. 2 billion fossils from hundreds of sedimentary layers across the globe. Sequenced genomes of most living things. Yet you are looking for a post in one of those threads that "present the facts"? There are so many facts that you couldn't put them under one roof. If you really want to look for information about evolution than start looking in the right place. Because you can't miss it if you go any real scientific or educational site...

This is why, by the way, your posting of a few quotes by a few people means nothing to the seasoned debaters on here. The opinion of 20 people devoid of evidence doesn't cancel out the hundreds of millions of man hours over the last 150 years spent validating and verifying the TOE....

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Re: Evidence Evolutionist are Dead Wrong - Creation Reasonab

Post #23

Post by theStudent »

Kenisaw wrote:
theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 14 by Blastcat]

What's the TOE?
Could you verify please.

And since you are a reasonable guy, could you please point me to a post in these forums, or a website, that presents the facts that I have missed. Because I can't seem to find them, and it's not that I am not looking.
Where exactly have you looked? Tell me, honestly, have you have visited any university, library, or research institute anywhere on Earth specifically to learn about the scientific theory of evolution? Because everything you've posted so far has come from websites with "creation" in the website name or "god" is in their mission statement. In order to review the data and empirical information for the scientific theory of evolution, you'll need to pencil in a block of time on your calendar. I'd recommend 6 months to go through the fossil and geologic data. Maybe another 3 months for the biological and 3 months for the morphological. The genetic I can't even say because I'm still looking at it myself. This is not a joke. There is a literal mountain of evidence that supports the theory of evolution. 2 billion fossils from hundreds of sedimentary layers across the globe. Sequenced genomes of most living things. Yet you are looking for a post in one of those threads that "present the facts"? There are so many facts that you couldn't put them under one roof. If you really want to look for information about evolution than start looking in the right place. Because you can't miss it if you go any real scientific or educational site...

This is why, by the way, your posting of a few quotes by a few people means nothing to the seasoned debaters on here. The opinion of 20 people devoid of evidence doesn't cancel out the hundreds of millions of man hours over the last 150 years spent validating and verifying the TOE....
Everything is on the internet - Everything.
If I can't find it there, something is wrong.

Anyway, isn't it the link I was pointed to, on Wikipedia?
That's no different to the stuff I have seen on many other sites.

It seems however, that because I am on a forum where many believe in evolution, I should believe it too, and avoid all the sites, and quotes of those who present information that says, specifically Mutations hasn't proven it. Natural Selection hasn't proven it. The fossils record hasn't proven it. The big bang hasn't explained it...

How would you like me to tell you to avoid all the information that evolutionists feed you. Would that seem fair?

It's okay for you to sit and say, 'Oh, you haven't provided any information to show that it hasn't been proven.'

What do you want me to do? Fill 60 pages on the forum?
I have provided the links to my sources, that any one can read the details of the studies carried out, and the results produced.

Yet not one person here has said, 'Here, this is just an extract, of the proof. You can read more in this link.'

Rather, all I can hear is, 'It has been proven.' 'It has been proven.'

And if I go and put out specific information against it, I will hear exactly the same thing. 'It has been proven.'

What else can I do but resign from the topic.
Is that okay with you guys?

Because I hate beating my head against a brick wall. It can wear you out.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Re: Evidence Evolutionist are Dead Wrong - Creation Reasonab

Post #24

Post by Zzyzx »

.
theStudent wrote: Everything is on the internet - Everything.
If I can't find it there, something is wrong.
It is interesting to do an Internet search for “evidence of evolution� and “evidence against evolution�, follow links and evaluate what is presented, what studies and evidence are cited, and by what organizations.
.
Non-Theist

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

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Re: Evidence Evolutionist are Dead Wrong - Creation Reasonab

Post #25

Post by Kenisaw »

theStudent wrote:
Kenisaw wrote:
Where exactly have you looked? Tell me, honestly, have you have visited any university, library, or research institute anywhere on Earth specifically to learn about the scientific theory of evolution? Because everything you've posted so far has come from websites with "creation" in the website name or "god" is in their mission statement. In order to review the data and empirical information for the scientific theory of evolution, you'll need to pencil in a block of time on your calendar. I'd recommend 6 months to go through the fossil and geologic data. Maybe another 3 months for the biological and 3 months for the morphological. The genetic I can't even say because I'm still looking at it myself. This is not a joke. There is a literal mountain of evidence that supports the theory of evolution. 2 billion fossils from hundreds of sedimentary layers across the globe. Sequenced genomes of most living things. Yet you are looking for a post in one of those threads that "present the facts"? There are so many facts that you couldn't put them under one roof. If you really want to look for information about evolution than start looking in the right place. Because you can't miss it if you go any real scientific or educational site...

This is why, by the way, your posting of a few quotes by a few people means nothing to the seasoned debaters on here. The opinion of 20 people devoid of evidence doesn't cancel out the hundreds of millions of man hours over the last 150 years spent validating and verifying the TOE....
Everything is on the internet - Everything.
If I can't find it there, something is wrong.
So we note that once again you fail to answer the questions being asked of you. I asked where you have looked. You failed to answer. I asked if you had visited any number of places, and you didn't answer.
Anyway, isn't it the link I was pointed to, on Wikipedia?
That's no different to the stuff I have seen on many other sites.
What sites? Where have you looked, and what have you researched?
It seems however, that because I am on a forum where many believe in evolution, I should believe it too, and avoid all the sites, and quotes of those who present information that says, specifically Mutations hasn't proven it. Natural Selection hasn't proven it. The fossils record hasn't proven it. The big bang hasn't explained it...
I'm not saying you should avoid those sites. But what do they offer? Quotes. No data, no empirical evidence, no information. Let's take your original post. Your first link is here:
https://thecuriosityparadox.org/tag/mutations/
They offer quotes. Please notice how skimpy their referencing is. Many quotes have no source listed. Some list a book but do not list a page number. Why would they do this? We will get back to that question.

The first person quoted is Jay Gould, who says something nice about Theodosius Dobzansky. Then they quote Theodosius Dobzansky. They don’t list the source of the quote. I did some digging, and found out that it came from a 1955 book entitled Evolution, genetics, and man. I found this book through archive.org which gives out free library cards to digitally access materials. The quote from your first link is on page 105 under a paragraph heading “Deleterious Character of Most Mutations�. If you continue to read, however, you quickly realize that the quote is taken out of context. Later on in the same paragraph is states “A more careful consideration shows, however, that the difficulty is much less formidable than it may appear at first sight�. The next paragraph on page 106 discusses mutations that allowed flies to survive DDT and mutations that allowed colon bacteria resistance to bacteriophages. He then states on page 106 in the next paragraph headed with “Useful Mutations� the following statement: “Useful mutations, therefore, are known. They are in fact not uncommon when organisms are placed in environments other than those in which these organisms usually occur, but in environments in which the species normally lives useful mutations are not observed�.

Does this sound like a man that thinks genetic mutation is not a cause of evolutionary change, Student? Obviously not.

So what happened? Well, it’s called quote mining, Student. It’s a favorite and often used ploy used by cultists and creationists. They find something from a notable scientist or person, particularly one involved in biological and life science study, and take it out of context like in the case with Dobzansky above. They made it look like he said something that he was not trying to say. In fact Dobzansky himself in an article entitled “Nothing in Biology Makes Sense except in the Light of Evolution� from The American Biology Teacher, volume 35, No. 3 (March 1973) pages 125-129, (found at the biologie-lernprogramme.de website) states on page 129: “Disagreements and clashes of opinion are rife among biologist , as they should be in a living and growing science. Antievolutionists mistake, or pretend to mistake, these disagreements as indications of dubiousness of the entire doctrine of evolution. Their favorite sport is stringing together quotations, carefully and sometimes expertly taken out of context, to show that nothing is really established or agreed upon among evolutionists. Some of my colleagues and myself have been amused and amazed to read ourselves quoted in a way showing that we are really antievolutionists under the skin.� The next paragraph he states: “Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the earth can be doubted only by those who are ignorant of the evidence or are resistant to evidence , owing to emotional blocks or to plain bigotry.� Also, “There are no alternatives to evolution as history that can withstand critical examination.�

Doesn’t sound like someone that doubts evolution to me. So the question becomes, why did the creator of that link you sent us to LIE? Why were you lied to, Student? All I hear from believers is how obvious the god creature’s glory is and how obvious it is everything was created, and yet these creationist websites have to stoop to lies and quote mining and other dishonest tactics to make their point.

Please understand, you aren’t the first wide-eyed youngster to read the garbage at sites like that and think you have all the ammo you need to defeat the theory of evolution. Seasoned debaters like myself have had this discussion with hundreds before you. And I get that you don’t want to take my word for it. Why should you? You don’t know me. You should be skeptical. In fact I want you to be skeptical, and check up on everything you are told and verify it yourself. You SHOULD be proving things to yourself. But the problem is you weren’t skeptical with the creationist website. You believed them, because that is what you want to believe. They are counting on that in fact, because if you bothered to examine what they say you’d find out how dishonest they are being with you.

We are just trying to tell you what we already know about websites that post quotes and claim it is proof – it’s all a steaming pile of doggy droppings. The only way you can verify that though is to dig into it yourself. Find out the source of the quote, and read the whole page, and see if it still says what they make it out to be…
How would you like me to tell you to avoid all the information that evolutionists feed you. Would that seem fair?
I’d check up on it if you said that, to make sure it is accurate and valid. You going to do the same thing with the links you’ve presented?
It's okay for you to sit and say, 'Oh, you haven't provided any information to show that it hasn't been proven.'
It’s a true statement. Quotes from people, without the data and evidence used to substantiate their conclusion, are baseless scientifically. Take the quote from your first link from Irving Kristol. Did you know he was a journalist? He never did a day of scientific research in his life. He wrote columns and started a couple of magazines. Nowhere does he state that he examined any evidence or how he reaches his conclusion. Utterly useless.
What do you want me to do? Fill 60 pages on the forum?
I have provided the links to my sources, that any one can read the details of the studies carried out, and the results produced.
Studies? Results? Where? Where are Irving Kristol’s studies and results?
Yet not one person here has said, 'Here, this is just an extract, of the proof. You can read more in this link.'

Rather, all I can hear is, 'It has been proven.' 'It has been proven.'
Just an extract of the work done on the theory of evolution would be the size of an encyclopedia. I wasn’t kidding when I said there was a literal mountain of evidence to go through. If you‘d like a suggestion, there is a book called “The Origin and Evolution of Mammals� by Kemp that is a good read. It includes dozens of pages of references, and you could read any of those as well. You can contemplate everything inside that book and decide for yourself if it makes sense or not.
And if I go and put out specific information against it, I will hear exactly the same thing. 'It has been proven.'

What else can I do but resign from the topic.
Is that okay with you guys?
To summarize this long post of mine, you haven’t provided specific information about anything. You’ve provided quotes, many of which are unreferenced. Going back again to your first link, you’ll notice that those quotes say “MOST� or “MANY� mutations aren’t useful. That should have set an alarm off in your head. No one says ALL of them are useless. Science agrees that most mutations aren’t useful. But some are. Dobzansky’s writings, once you read the entire context, states exactly that. I don’t see where you’ve provided anything that specifically refutes data and evidence and offers up reasonings why the conclusions reached are wrong and what the new conclusions for the data and evidence ought to be…

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Re: Evidence Evolutionist are Dead Wrong - Creation Reasonab

Post #26

Post by theStudent »

Kenisaw wrote:
theStudent wrote:
Kenisaw wrote:
Where exactly have you looked? Tell me, honestly, have you have visited any university, library, or research institute anywhere on Earth specifically to learn about the scientific theory of evolution? Because everything you've posted so far has come from websites with "creation" in the website name or "god" is in their mission statement. In order to review the data and empirical information for the scientific theory of evolution, you'll need to pencil in a block of time on your calendar. I'd recommend 6 months to go through the fossil and geologic data. Maybe another 3 months for the biological and 3 months for the morphological. The genetic I can't even say because I'm still looking at it myself. This is not a joke. There is a literal mountain of evidence that supports the theory of evolution. 2 billion fossils from hundreds of sedimentary layers across the globe. Sequenced genomes of most living things. Yet you are looking for a post in one of those threads that "present the facts"? There are so many facts that you couldn't put them under one roof. If you really want to look for information about evolution than start looking in the right place. Because you can't miss it if you go any real scientific or educational site...

This is why, by the way, your posting of a few quotes by a few people means nothing to the seasoned debaters on here. The opinion of 20 people devoid of evidence doesn't cancel out the hundreds of millions of man hours over the last 150 years spent validating and verifying the TOE....
Everything is on the internet - Everything.
If I can't find it there, something is wrong.
So we note that once again you fail to answer the questions being asked of you. I asked where you have looked. You failed to answer. I asked if you had visited any number of places, and you didn't answer.
Anyway, isn't it the link I was pointed to, on Wikipedia?
That's no different to the stuff I have seen on many other sites.
What sites? Where have you looked, and what have you researched?
It seems however, that because I am on a forum where many believe in evolution, I should believe it too, and avoid all the sites, and quotes of those who present information that says, specifically Mutations hasn't proven it. Natural Selection hasn't proven it. The fossils record hasn't proven it. The big bang hasn't explained it...
I'm not saying you should avoid those sites. But what do they offer? Quotes. No data, no empirical evidence, no information. Let's take your original post. Your first link is here:
https://thecuriosityparadox.org/tag/mutations/
They offer quotes. Please notice how skimpy their referencing is. Many quotes have no source listed. Some list a book but do not list a page number. Why would they do this? We will get back to that question.

The first person quoted is Jay Gould, who says something nice about Theodosius Dobzansky. Then they quote Theodosius Dobzansky. They don’t list the source of the quote. I did some digging, and found out that it came from a 1955 book entitled Evolution, genetics, and man. I found this book through archive.org which gives out free library cards to digitally access materials. The quote from your first link is on page 105 under a paragraph heading “Deleterious Character of Most Mutations�. If you continue to read, however, you quickly realize that the quote is taken out of context. Later on in the same paragraph is states “A more careful consideration shows, however, that the difficulty is much less formidable than it may appear at first sight�. The next paragraph on page 106 discusses mutations that allowed flies to survive DDT and mutations that allowed colon bacteria resistance to bacteriophages. He then states on page 106 in the next paragraph headed with “Useful Mutations� the following statement: “Useful mutations, therefore, are known. They are in fact not uncommon when organisms are placed in environments other than those in which these organisms usually occur, but in environments in which the species normally lives useful mutations are not observed�.

Does this sound like a man that thinks genetic mutation is not a cause of evolutionary change, Student? Obviously not.

So what happened? Well, it’s called quote mining, Student. It’s a favorite and often used ploy used by cultists and creationists. They find something from a notable scientist or person, particularly one involved in biological and life science study, and take it out of context like in the case with Dobzansky above. They made it look like he said something that he was not trying to say. In fact Dobzansky himself in an article entitled “Nothing in Biology Makes Sense except in the Light of Evolution� from The American Biology Teacher, volume 35, No. 3 (March 1973) pages 125-129, (found at the biologie-lernprogramme.de website) states on page 129: “Disagreements and clashes of opinion are rife among biologist , as they should be in a living and growing science. Antievolutionists mistake, or pretend to mistake, these disagreements as indications of dubiousness of the entire doctrine of evolution. Their favorite sport is stringing together quotations, carefully and sometimes expertly taken out of context, to show that nothing is really established or agreed upon among evolutionists. Some of my colleagues and myself have been amused and amazed to read ourselves quoted in a way showing that we are really antievolutionists under the skin.� The next paragraph he states: “Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the earth can be doubted only by those who are ignorant of the evidence or are resistant to evidence , owing to emotional blocks or to plain bigotry.� Also, “There are no alternatives to evolution as history that can withstand critical examination.�

Doesn’t sound like someone that doubts evolution to me. So the question becomes, why did the creator of that link you sent us to LIE? Why were you lied to, Student? All I hear from believers is how obvious the god creature’s glory is and how obvious it is everything was created, and yet these creationist websites have to stoop to lies and quote mining and other dishonest tactics to make their point.

Please understand, you aren’t the first wide-eyed youngster to read the garbage at sites like that and think you have all the ammo you need to defeat the theory of evolution. Seasoned debaters like myself have had this discussion with hundreds before you. And I get that you don’t want to take my word for it. Why should you? You don’t know me. You should be skeptical. In fact I want you to be skeptical, and check up on everything you are told and verify it yourself. You SHOULD be proving things to yourself. But the problem is you weren’t skeptical with the creationist website. You believed them, because that is what you want to believe. They are counting on that in fact, because if you bothered to examine what they say you’d find out how dishonest they are being with you.

We are just trying to tell you what we already know about websites that post quotes and claim it is proof – it’s all a steaming pile of doggy droppings. The only way you can verify that though is to dig into it yourself. Find out the source of the quote, and read the whole page, and see if it still says what they make it out to be…
How would you like me to tell you to avoid all the information that evolutionists feed you. Would that seem fair?
I’d check up on it if you said that, to make sure it is accurate and valid. You going to do the same thing with the links you’ve presented?
It's okay for you to sit and say, 'Oh, you haven't provided any information to show that it hasn't been proven.'
It’s a true statement. Quotes from people, without the data and evidence used to substantiate their conclusion, are baseless scientifically. Take the quote from your first link from Irving Kristol. Did you know he was a journalist? He never did a day of scientific research in his life. He wrote columns and started a couple of magazines. Nowhere does he state that he examined any evidence or how he reaches his conclusion. Utterly useless.
What do you want me to do? Fill 60 pages on the forum?
I have provided the links to my sources, that any one can read the details of the studies carried out, and the results produced.
Studies? Results? Where? Where are Irving Kristol’s studies and results?
Yet not one person here has said, 'Here, this is just an extract, of the proof. You can read more in this link.'

Rather, all I can hear is, 'It has been proven.' 'It has been proven.'
Just an extract of the work done on the theory of evolution would be the size of an encyclopedia. I wasn’t kidding when I said there was a literal mountain of evidence to go through. If you‘d like a suggestion, there is a book called “The Origin and Evolution of Mammals� by Kemp that is a good read. It includes dozens of pages of references, and you could read any of those as well. You can contemplate everything inside that book and decide for yourself if it makes sense or not.
And if I go and put out specific information against it, I will hear exactly the same thing. 'It has been proven.'

What else can I do but resign from the topic.
Is that okay with you guys?
To summarize this long post of mine, you haven’t provided specific information about anything. You’ve provided quotes, many of which are unreferenced. Going back again to your first link, you’ll notice that those quotes say “MOST� or “MANY� mutations aren’t useful. That should have set an alarm off in your head. No one says ALL of them are useless. Science agrees that most mutations aren’t useful. But some are. Dobzansky’s writings, once you read the entire context, states exactly that. I don’t see where you’ve provided anything that specifically refutes data and evidence and offers up reasonings why the conclusions reached are wrong and what the new conclusions for the data and evidence ought to be…
Thank you.
When I have finished my research and put together my findings, I will pm you.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Re: Evidence Evolutionist are Dead Wrong - Creation Reasonab

Post #27

Post by Kenisaw »

[Replying to post 25 by theStudent]

To continue reviewing your first link, the next quoted person is Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig. Try as I might, I cannot find any confirmation of his quotes. I am not claiming he didn't say them though. At one creationist site they have a picture of him in a yard area, perhaps at his house. Can't say if he sent him that pic or they found it on the internet, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt.

This quote is from your first link and attributed to Lonnig: "By the 1980’s, the hopes and euphoria among scientists had ended in worldwide failure. Mutation breeding as a separate branch of research was abandoned in Western countries. Almost all the mutants exhibited ‘negative selection values,’ that is, they died or were weaker than wild varieties"

After much research I found a larger quote (ironically at a creationist website) that puts the Lonnig quote into context: "In the late 1930’s, scientists enthusiastically embraced a new idea. They already thought that natural selection—the process in which the organism best suited to its environment is most likely to survive and breed—could produce new species of plants from random mutations. Therefore, they now assumed that artificial, or human-guided, selection of mutations should be able to do the same thing but more efficiently. “Euphoria spread among biologists in general and geneticists and breeders in particular,� said Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig, a scientist from the Max Planck Institute for Plant Breeding Research in Germany.* Why the euphoria? Lönnig, who has spent some 30 years studying mutation genetics in plants, said: “These researchers thought that the time had come to revolutionize the traditional method of breeding plants and animals. They thought that by inducing and selecting favorable mutations, they could produce new and better plants and animals.�20 In fact, some hoped to produce entirely new species.

Scientists in the United States, Asia, and Europe launched well-funded research programs using methods that promised to speed up evolution. After more than 40 years of intensive research, what were the results? “In spite of an enormous financial expenditure,� says researcher Peter von Sengbusch, “the attempt to cultivate increasingly productive varieties by irradiation [to cause mutations], widely proved to be a failure.�21 And Lönnig said: “By the 1980’s, the hopes and euphoria among scientists had ended in worldwide failure. Mutation breeding as a separate branch of research was abandoned in Western countries. Almost all the mutants . . . died or were weaker than wild varieties.� (From: http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/pc/r1/lp-e/1200273964/0/0 )

In other words, Lonnig was talking about artificially trying to speed up and direct the process of natural selection to make organisms change according to the whims of man. His quote is NOT an indictment of the theory of evolution at all apparently.

They have a second quote from him as well, also found at the site above. He's still talking about the same thing.

It's ironic that the creation site I found this at was trying to claim that if man can't do it then there's no reason to think an unintelligent, unguided way could. Too bad that man has done it though, with corn and wheat and dogs and cattle. We have artificially directed the evolution of organisms to get the traits we find desirable. And with genetic engineering we have also been able to speed the process up as well (something Lonnig was not involved in). So not only was the JW website completely wrong about their conclusions, their usage of the larger quote helped defeat the claim at YOUR linked creationist website. Creationists defeating creationists. It doesn't get any better than that.

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