What really happened in the garden of Eden.

[mickiel]

One of the most distorted events in human history, is the events in Eden and what really happened there. The common perception is that God created Adam and Eve, trained them and taught them and gave them his Holy Spirit: they then had to face satan, as the devil sneeked into Eden and totally messed up the heads of Adam and Eve and thus they failed some kind of test from God, and were thrown out of the garden. And this is erroneously called " The Fall."

I disagree with so much of these religious assumptions. First, there is absolutely no evidence that God gave Adam and Eve his Spirit, or that he prepared them for this " Contest" with satan. The young couple were left totally defenseless and they had absolutely no chance whatsoever against the serpent. The serpent did not sneak into the garden, he could only gain access from God himself, so God planned the event.

In Gen. 1:27, God gives Adam and Eve " Consciousness", which is what " The Image of God " means. The image of God is not anything physical. In Gen. 2:16 God commands that the couple not eat of a tree he created that contained the knowledge of Good and Evil", from that we can know that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of either good or evil, to this point. Now in Gen. 3:1 we can see that the serpent , or satan, was created by God, because he was MORE subtil, MORE deceptive than any OTHER beast THAT GOD HAD MADE! So God MADE him that way.

Then we now have satan inside of the garden of Eden ,we MUST assume that God planned on him being there. So satan was " More", in other words, more powerful than any other creation on earth. Now we have in verse 1, satan begins his deception. He goes directly to Eve, Adam stands by and does nothing, because he did not know anythingelse to do. The serpent does his thing, the young couple does what God commanded them not to do. And God knew this would happen, and God did absolutely nothing to help them, and that must be remembered and understood.

In Gen. 3:7 it clearly states that " The EYES of both of them were OPENED!" This does not mean they were physically blind before this seduction, it means they were SPIRITUALLY blind!! They did NOT have the Spirit of God or any spiritual training. They were CLOSED before this happened; they could NOT see before this event, they were spiritually BLIND!

What do you think will happen when God sends the most seductive, subtle, powerful being on earth to face a spiritually blind couple? Its academic, but totally misunderstood by religion.

[Cewakiyelo]

[Replying to post 27 by mickiel]

Its stupid to be naked and not know it?
Is that like saying it is stupid to be stupid and not know it?

So all the world around them is naked. But you feel that they have some concept of nudity when there is nothing else to compare it to? It was not until they ate of the tree that they saw things differently. Nothing really changed in the world. The change happens in their own mind. To many drugs to much alcohol can make people stupid. Wouldn't your agree?

[ttruscott]

I never said its evil to be naked, I said its stupid to be naked and not know it.

And I don't go for that " God special word for me crap"; I don't know God, and he does not communicate with me through words. I get my thoughts from the bible.

No, the bible says it is evil to be naked... And special words / thoughts are fine if given to you but not anyone else? Hmmmm...

But you forgot to mention your theology about this:

Except it is not true that GOD needed Christ to die until after some of HIS elect chose to sin. Christ died to redeem His sheep gone stray (into sin)...IF no sheep went astray into sin, no death because of no need for redemption from sin.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 27 by mickiel]

I agree to the extent that if it was evil to be naked, God wouldn't have created Adam and Eve naked. The fact is it wasn't God that first put clothes on them, Adam and Even clothed themselves after their sin. God created them naked and at no point did God tell them "For goodness sake, cover you dangly bits!"

So originally at least, the perfect state was... naked.

JW

But this naked is the world that is a homonym for the evil of craftyness and when their eyes were opened to their sin they saw their nakedness and not their eating, a nakedness they had before they ate. It is obvious that they are being called sinful, not nude or unclothed because there can be no sin in being what GOD made you.

You got halfway there but faded... Why is their nakedness even being mentioned let alone alluded to as the sin they saw in themselves after they ate if it does not mean anything??? It might as well be written: "And Adam and Eve had hair on their head but were not ashamed!" Utter meaningless if there was no sinful connotation to their state.

[JehovahsWitness]

But this naked is the world that is a homonym for the evil of craftyness and when their eyes were opened to their sin they saw their nakedness and not their eating, a nakedness they had before they ate.

I'm sorry I have no idea what this means.

Why is their nakedness even being mentioned let alone alluded to as the sin they saw in themselves after they ate if it does not mean anything?

It did mean something. After their sin their nakedness was no longer innocent, blissful and "good"; rather it made them feel ashamed. When they lost their innocence, they lost that blissful ignorance of appreciating their bodies without shame.

It wasn't so much their perception of each other, so much as how there internal, moral shame translated into a shame of their own bodies. We see this a lot today, people that have been abused or raped sometimes translated the violence done against them into self hatred. They begin to self harm or can't bear to look at themselves. There's even a mental condition where people have a distored view of themselves, seeing their perfectly normal (or even attractive bodies) as ugly and deformed. I'm not suggesting that Adam and Eve suffered from this, but it's just to illustrate that how one feels about oneself can translate in how one "sees" one's own physicality.

I don't claim to know the mechanics of what happened emotionally or even mentally to Adam and Eve but what we do know is, there was nothing wrong in their initially being naked. When they sinned something changed in how they perceived their own bodies.

JW

[ttruscott]

Where humans are concerned, there is no such thing as a perfect state. Adam and Eve were never perfect; never!

Deut 32 states that all God does is perfect, so when God creates ANYTHING he creates perfection. Thus Adam and Eve, at the moment they were created were perfect.

Agreed. But then to see that they were naked/crafty/sinful in the garden is a short step, no leap at all, to seeing that they were not created in the garden but moved there and put into dusty bodies after they chose by their free will to rebel against their GOD, as Jesus told us happens: Matt 13:36-39

However we must bear in mind that God NEVER wanted Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He warned them not to touch it.

Warning them not to touch it is not proof HE did not want them to eat... 2 Corinthians 3:9 If the ministry [of commandments] that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry [of love in the gospel] that brings righteousness! What is this ministry of commandments 2 Corinthians 3:7 except to open our eyes to our sin and need for repentance?

Commandments are given to prove our sin by the inability of any to obey the law... Romans 7:7 ...Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law.

The command to not eat was put to prove that as a sinner he could not keep that command, that is, their predictable failure opened their eyes to their being sinful already so they became ashamed when before they rejected that judgement.

[mickiel]

Where humans are concerned, there is no such thing as a perfect state. Adam and Eve were never perfect; never!

Deut 32 states that all God does is perfect, so when God creates ANYTHING he creates perfection. Thus Adam and Eve, at the moment they were created were perfect.

Quote


I totally disagree, all that God creates is not perfect; humanity is the prime example of imperfection.

And God did " Want" Adam and Eve to eat from the tree, and his will got done. You are suggesting that something happened that God did not " Want" to happen. Which is dangerous teaching, because it teaches that something to be more powerful than God. If something happened that God did not want to happen, then that thing would be more powerful than God.

[JehovahsWitness]

I totally disagree, all that God creates is not perfect.

DEUTERONOMY 32:4
“The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he." ESV

Well all I can say is, I accept the bible view that all God's work is perfect; the bible says God created Adam and Eve, so at least at the moment of creation biblically they were indeed "perfect".

And God did " Want" Adam and Eve to eat from the tree

GENESIS 2:16, 17
"And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil..."

If God wanted Adam and Eve to eat from the tree it would have been entirely contradictory (and dishonest) for him to command them NOT to eat from it. If someone says to their child "Do NOT put your hand in the fire or it will burn you" do you conclude they WANT the child to burn themselves?

You are suggesting that something happened that God did not " Want" to happen.

Yes, that's entirely what the bible indicates.

Which is dangerous teaching, because it teaches that something to be more powerful than God.

No it doesn't. God could have at any time stopped Adam and Eve from breaking his law, but he wanted them to obey him out of free will not because he forced them to. God chooses not to control everything that happends, not because he can't but because it would not be wise to. So yes, some things happen that God does not want to happen. There is nothing "dangerous" about this idea, quite on the contrary it is entirely scriptural.

JEHOVAHS WITNESS

[ttruscott]

But this naked is the world that is a homonym for the evil of craftyness and when their eyes were opened to their sin they saw their nakedness and not their eating, a nakedness they had before they ate.

I'm sorry I have no idea what this means.

Oh? It's been part of our conversation here, posts #11 and for detail, #4.

A homonym is word with one spelling that can have two meanings:
Genesis 2:25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made.

naked: Strong's H6174 - `arowm
עָרוֹ�

Root Word (Etymology)
From עָרַ� (H6191) (in its original sense)

crafty: Strong's H6175 - `aruwm
עָרוּ�

Root Word (Etymology)
Pass. part. of עָרַ� (H6191)

The difference between these words in the Hebrew are found only in the vowels which were not put into the written text until c600AD. As written, they are the same word, עָרַ� pronounced `arm in English. Interesting, no?

Especially when Hebrew also has a very clear (unambiguous) word for being unclothed or nude: Strong's H1540 - galah גָּלָה as in Genesis 9:21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent..

I contend that this world is translated as naked and not crafty because of the created on earth and therefore perfect in the garden bias...

[mickiel]

I think if God wanted to create something perfect, then he could, but I also think it is simply unwise to call everything he created to be perfect, when it is not. Humans are not perfect, which would mean we are sinless. If the flesh was perfect, it would never die. Even the universe is in a state of decay. God created the devil and demons, and they are not perfect. And I have no need to make a scripture fit something that is not true.

I am not perfect, and God created me. I think that all the imperfection that God created, will one day become perfect, but it is not perfect now; common sense reveals that.

But, you know, when it comes to scripture, some of us just throw common sense away, in order to think ourselves as " Spiritual."

[ttruscott]

I think if God wanted to create something perfect, then he could, but I also think it is simply unwise to call everything he created to be perfect, when it is not. Humans are not perfect, which would mean we are sinless. If the flesh was perfect, it would never die. Even the universe is in a state of decay. God created the devil and demons, and they are not perfect. And I have no need to make a scripture fit something that is not true.

I am not perfect, and God created me. I think that all the imperfection that God created, will one day become perfect, but it is not perfect now; common sense reveals that.

But, you know, when it comes to scripture, some of us just throw common sense away, in order to think ourselves as " Spiritual."

You seem to think being perfect only means incorruptible. It might also mean perfect for HIS purpose... which was a true marriage to HIS creation based upon our willingness to enter such a full PERFECT communion based upon free will which necessitated our being able to choose corruption. Our full perfection of incorruptibility will be reached at our resurrection, but we were NOT created already corrupted. We chose corruption by our free will.