The Heart

[Zzyzx]

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The Heart is said by many individuals (and some religious literature) to be the seat of emotions / love / decisions. Is that true? I doubt it. Consider:

People with an artificial heart or those on a cardiopulmonary bypass machine. Do they lose emotion / love / decision making?

If a person has a heart transplant to they take on the emotions / loves / decision making of the donor?

If a person suffers massive brain damage but their heart is undamaged, do they retain emotions / love / decision making?

[JehovahsWitness]

And those who say “I love with all my heart� or “Listen to your heart� or “A joyful heart�, etc, etc.

Why do you presume the writer is not refering to the heart metaphorically but literally to the medically identifiable pumping organ in a person's chest?

[Zzyzx]

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My understanding is that books, songs and dramas and poems often refer to the "heart" metaphorically (not literaly literally refering to the pumping organ in our chests) and that most religious writers and believers understand it as such.

I agree that books, songs, dramas, poems and religious writings often use “heart� metaphorically.

This poses a problem when metaphorical use is intermixed with literal statements and the distinction is not clear.

Why do you presume the writer is not refering to the heart metaphorically but literally to the medically identifiable pumping organ in a person's chest?

Any of us can guess the intent of writers. One may guess a metaphorical intent and another guess a literal intent. That may be of little importance in poems and songs but can be important in other contexts.


If one intends to convey factual information the use of metaphor can be misleading.

[JehovahsWitness]

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My understanding is that books, songs and dramas and poems often refer to the "heart" metaphorically (not literaly literally refering to the pumping organ in our chests) and that most religious writers and believers understand it as such.

I agree that books, songs, dramas, poems and religious writings often use “heart� metaphorically.

This poses a problem when metaphorical use is intermixed with literal statements and the distinction is not clear.

Why do you presume the writer is not refering to the heart metaphorically but literally to the medically identifiable pumping organ in a person's chest?

[...].

No, not really. Since the majority of poems, songs, AND religious writing as you state use the term metaphorically, then a reasonable position would be to assume a passage is metaphoric (since that would be the case in the majorty "most'" as you say in your own words) and then ONLY change that position if there is Something contexually that implies strongly that this norm should not be applied.

ie, if the context is a literal battle, and an individual is spoken of as being stabbed with a sword through the heart and dying and subsequent to this event being buried. <-- this would strongly indicates that the "heart" in question is the pumping organ and not the inner personals emotional feelings.

As with songs and poems past and present, a LOT of the bible is written in poetry and song form (the longest book in the bible, The Psalms are literally called songs; as is "The Song of Solomon" and many passages are explicitly presented as Dreams, visions, symbols, or poems using literary devices that identify them as such etc.

There is no real problem for anybody with a basic knowledge of language and a small smattering common sense. Otherwise yes, I agree with you, this presents a huge problem; probably an insurmountable one.


JW

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

Hello my beautiful Z! I hope this finds you well

I have no research, this is just my insight. The heart refers to our center, the very core of who we are. It pumps out blood full of nutrients and oxygen, that sustain our body. The beating heart, represents life (just look at the antiabortion campaigns). It reveals the true health of our body. Lab work is done to examine disease, virus, and the health of organs.

So, when referred to as, "God seeks our hearts," He wants our very center, the core of who we are. He wants to be such a part of our lives that He nourishes every cell in our body with His presence. When a Christian isn't doing quite well, in a spiritual way, we examine our hearts for health.

When we give someone our hearts, we give them transparency into who we are, there isn't anything we hold back.

I hope that makes sense

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 9 by JehovahsWitness]

A lot of religious literature uses the word heart in a similar way to the songwriters above; none of which, I dare say were studied in cardiology departments of medical centres which would mean that a person that has a heart translplant or an artificial component in their heart is Something completely different from the above.[/color]

Nobody imagines that the Bible authors were cardiologists or neuroscientists. They knew practically nothing about how the heart actually functioned and didn't understand how the brain works, either. Not the authors, not Jesus, nobody.

If they DID.. they went out of their way to keep it all a SECRET. Same with the germ theory of disease. THE best they could do is to come up with pretty metaphors that don't really match up with what we NOW KNOW.

If you want to know about the REAL human heart and emotions, the Bible can only offer poetic metaphors. I'm not knocking poetry... but that's not KNOWLEDGE, that's art.

The Bible is at the very same level as Blondie when it comes to the heart.

Poetry.

[catnip]

[Replying to post 9 by JehovahsWitness]

A lot of religious literature uses the word heart in a similar way to the songwriters above; none of which, I dare say were studied in cardiology departments of medical centres which would mean that a person that has a heart translplant or an artificial component in their heart is Something completely different from the above.[/color]

Nobody imagines that the Bible authors were cardiologists or neuroscientists. They knew practically nothing about how the heart actually functioned and didn't understand how the brain works, either. Not the authors, not Jesus, nobody.

If they DID.. they went out of their way to keep it all a SECRET. Same with the germ theory of disease. THE best they could do is to come up with pretty metaphors that don't really match up with what we NOW KNOW.

If you want to know about the REAL human heart and emotions, the Bible can only offer poetic metaphors. I'm not knocking poetry... but that's not KNOWLEDGE, that's art.

The Bible is at the very same level as Blondie when it comes to the heart.

Poetry.

Well, at the very least, one thing the ancients could tell was that our emotions are reflected in our heart and in our heartbeat. When we feel love, when we are sexually aroused, when we are frightened, when we are angry, when we are at peace . . .

Why is it that the metaphorical language of the Bible is such a stumbling block? And why is it that science must limit and explain the heart and the Bible can't describe the hearts meaning as a separate concept?

No, the ancients had no idea what the brain did and no way to. So they described the physical expression of their emotion. Big deal. Hardly worth any argument at all, in my opinion. We have a good many idioms in our language from ancient times that can be dispelled by science and if we toss them all, we will be the poorer for it because they express things that science doesn't.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 16 by catnip]


Hello, catnip.

Well, at the very least, one thing the ancients could tell was that our emotions are reflected in our heart and in our heartbeat.

Could they? But more importantly, do we KNOW that they did?

Well, MAYBE they could. WE don't have that information IN the Bible. We have poetry and metaphors about the heart.

When we feel love, when we are sexually aroused, when we are frightened, when we are angry, when we are at peace

. . .

We know this now.. did they know that then?

Why is it that the metaphorical language of the Bible is such a stumbling block? And why is it that science must limit and explain the heart and the Bible can't describe the hearts meaning as a separate concept?

It's a problem because all we HAVE about the heart is poetry and metaphors, and the get those ideas WRONG.

You might want to explain how you know the state of science in Biblical authors. But we can't go on what they WROTE. .. what they wrote about the heart is metaphorical and poetical. It certainly isn't science.

When they talk about the heart, they make nice metaphors that are WRONG.

Well, Blondie wrote poetry about the heart as well... same level of "wisdom". Take what you will out of either.

No, the ancients had no idea what the brain did and no way to. So they described the physical expression of their emotion. Big deal.

They did their best, I suppose. Big deal.
They were wrong about the human body. Big deal.

The Bible has a lot of metaphors.. big DEAL. If we can't take the Bible seriously about the HEART, what ELSE does it get wrong?

The Bible is an old book with LOTS of errors, so.. yeah.. big deal. Why pretend otherwise?

When they use a word like "heart"... they were wrong if they didn't just mean poetry like Blondie's songs. If you don't think that if the Bible gets things wrong isn't a big deal, fine. I don't expect the Bible to be a work of non-fiction, I EXPECT it to be wrong about MOST things.

Hardly worth any argument at all, in my opinion. We have a good many idioms in our language from ancient times that can be dispelled by science and if we toss them all, we will be the poorer for it because they express things that science doesn't.

If it's not worth arguing about, then I suggest that you DON'T.

We can't take the Bible literally about the heart. They just didn't really know what they were talking about, but yeah... they could DO poetry.

BIG DEAL.. I can write poetry, too.
So can Charles Manson.

The Bible says something?
BIG DEAL !

[JehovahsWitness]

Nobody imagines that the Bible authors were cardiologists or neuroscientists. They knew practically nothing about how the heart actually functioned and didn't understand how the brain works, either. ...

Exactly, so why should there be any "confusion" about the bible's use of the word "heart" Which is what the OP is implying? In view of what you have said, it seems reasonable to conclude that in 99% of the cases when the bible uses the word "heart" it is speaking metaphorically.

You are then supporting the point I've made, which is, there's not real confusion on the matter, the bible rarely refer to the literal organ so we can presume they were speaking metaphorically.


JW

[liamconnor]

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The Heart is said by many individuals (and some religious literature) to be the seat of emotions / love / decisions. Is that true? I doubt it. Consider:

People with an artificial heart or those on a cardiopulmonary bypass machine. Do they lose emotion / love / decision making?

If a person has a heart transplant to they take on the emotions / loves / decision making of the donor?

If a person suffers massive brain damage but their heart is undamaged, do they retain emotions / love / decision making?

I am pretty certain most people use this kind of language metaphorically. After all, if we press it even more literally it becomes even more ridiculous

the seat of emotions / love / decisions

As if emotions and love and decisions were three concrete entities all trying to literally sit on an organ!

Metaphor is not particular to religion. Everyone uses it.

[marco]

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The Heart is said by many individuals (and some religious literature) to be the seat of emotions / love / decisions. Is that true? I doubt it. Consider:

I was reading an article recently in some science magazine and it seems that it was long believed that the heart generated emotions. Even medical opinion supported this. Experiments on the brain involved brains of dead people, but in modern times it was possible to illustrate which part of the brain sent messages of language etc.

The heart is no more than a blood pump, having only poetic claim to emotions.