Is there any sense in the core message of the Gospel?

[McCulloch]

As far as I know, this one passage is central to most, if not all, of the Christian gospel.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

If God really loved the people of the world so much, why could he not come up with a plan that would have more people saved?

Why is it that God cannot avert his own wrath without sacrificing his only begotten Son? Why could he not just forgive without the sacrifice?

Why is belief necessary? Why couldn't God just forgive?

[McCulloch]

You know I hate analogies.

What I mean to say is that if God loved the world, then he would have found a way to provide salvation to the majority rather than the minority and that the way could be rejected only by rejecting rational thought, similar to the compulsive gambler, who must reject common sense and logic to justify his behaviour.

But that is only the first reason why John 3:16 makes no sense. You have correctly pointed out that the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus|God to appease the wrath of Father|God also makes no sense.

[Biker]

As far as I know, this one passage is central to most, if not all, of the Christian gospel.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

If God really loved the people of the world so much, why could he not come up with a plan that would have more people saved?

Why is it that God cannot avert his own wrath without sacrificing his only begotten Son? Why could he not just forgive without the sacrifice?

Why is belief necessary? Why couldn't God just forgive?

This is a too brief simplification.3 questions 3 answers.
1)Why, U know the plan and have rejected,in fact U don't even(quote) "believe He exists."Why would a different plan make any difference? What would U change?What is flawed with this one?
2)Because His creation Adam sinned and lost his a)rule b)relationship c) physical life, as given to him by God. A man lost it, a man had to gain it and restore said. A mere mortal born in sin nature could not.Jesus decided equality with God a thing not to be grasped.It was not only God but Jesus decision also. Jesus laid down His humanity for all man, his friends.
3)Have you ever loved a woman and she didn't return it, in fact was just not responding in kind with love? The harder you loved her, the harder she didn't love you? Thats why!

Biker

Biker

[Cathar1950]

As far as I know, this one passage is central to most, if not all, of the Christian gospel.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

If God really loved the people of the world so much, why could he not come up with a plan that would have more people saved?

Why is it that God cannot avert his own wrath without sacrificing his only begotten Son? Why could he not just forgive without the sacrifice?

Why is belief necessary? Why couldn't God just forgive?

This is a too brief simplification.3 questions 3 answers.
1)Why, U know the plan and have rejected,in fact U don't even(quote) "believe He exists."Why would a different plan make any difference? What would U change?What is flawed with this one?
2)Because His creation Adam sinned and lost his a)rule b)relationship c) physical life, as given to him by God. A man lost it, a man had to gain it and restore said. A mere mortal born in sin nature could not.Jesus decided equality with God a thing not to be grasped.It was not only God but Jesus decision also. Jesus laid down His humanity for all man, his friends.
3)Have you ever loved a woman and she didn't return it, in fact was just not responding in kind with love? The harder you loved her, the harder she didn't love you? Thats why!

Biker

Biker

1) It is not a plan it is a human sacrifice for a fall that didn’t happen.
2) Adam lost access to the tree of life. The gods or God that partook of the tree did not want man to take it as he had become like them and would live forever and that could have been a possible competitor. They were meant to be gardeners. There is no original sin so Jesus didn’t need to be sinless sacrifice. Jesus was a mortal as he died. Things died for millions of years before man ever arrived. You are using Paul’s ideas as if they were fact. I see no reason why God would empty himself to become a sacrifice. You are preaching. You are just adding myth to myth.
3) What does your love problems have to do with anything?

[McCulloch]

1)Why, U know the plan and have rejected, in fact U don't even "believe He exists." Why would a different plan make any difference? What would U change? What is flawed with this one?

One good reason not to believe that God exists is that almost everyone who claims that God exists tell me that he has a plan for the salvation of humans that is not worthy of a loving and powerful God. If God really "so loved the world", then he would he have provided a plan for salvation that would be accessible only to the minority of people?

2)Because His creation Adam sinned and lost his a)rule b)relationship c) physical life, as given to him by God. A man lost it, a man had to gain it and restore said. A mere mortal born in sin nature could not.Jesus decided equality with God a thing not to be grasped.It was not only God but Jesus decision also. Jesus laid down His humanity for all man, his friends.

But why?

And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven."
And some of the scribes said to themselves, "This fellow blasphemes."
And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, "Why are you thinking evil in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, and walk'? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"--then He said to the paralytic, "Get up, pick up your bed and go home."
And he got up and went home.

Jesus seemed to behave as if forgiveness from sins could happen without a bloody sacrifice. Surely God could just say, "You're all forgiven."

3)Have you ever loved a woman and she didn't return it, in fact was just not responding in kind with love? The harder you loved her, the harder she didn't love you? Thats why!

No, Biker, I have not. Whenever any woman that I was interested in was not interested in me (and there have been quite a few ) I wisely choose to leave alone. The kind of love you are talking about is the kind of dysfunctional love that leads psychopaths to commit murder-suicides. Does your God have such insecurity that he needs people to believe in him even when he does not plainly and unambiguously demonstrate his existence?

[Cephus]

You know I hate analogies. I understand your logic but in the form of his core message, there is no logic. If this entity were to exist, why would he say he loved mankind so much he gave his only begotten son (himself) so that whoever beleived in in won't perish, but have eternal life? What he is really saying is he gave the illusion of sufferance as man, died under the pretense of cleansing mans sins, then threatened that if you don't believe in hime, you perish. Confliction???

When you look at it, it becomes really, really silly. So here we have God, who knows everything, and creates humans that he *KNOWS* are going to do what he tells them not to. He dangles knowledge in front of their eyes and when they do what he already knows they're going to do, he damns them and all of their offspring with eternal torment unless those offspring completely forego the wisdom and intelligence that God gave them in the first place. Then, just for kicks, he sends himself to Earth for 30 years and dies for the sins of everyone, although he doesn't really die, he just has a bad weekend, and supposedly, that's supposed to be something to be proud of?

Who wrote this stupid story anyhow? I know 6-year olds that could come up with something more rational!

[Cephus]

What I mean to say is that if God loved the world, then he would have found a way to provide salvation to the majority rather than the minority and that the way could be rejected only by rejecting rational thought, similar to the compulsive gambler, who must reject common sense and logic to justify his behaviour.

Actually, if God had a clue, he wouldn't have set mankind up to fail in the first place, thus not needing to save anyone. I mean, how screwed up is this God anyhow that holds out a goodie to people he purposely didn't give the knowledge of good and evil, then punishes them for TAKING IT?!?!?!

And they want us to follow this guy?

[Cathar1950]

What I mean to say is that if God loved the world, then he would have found a way to provide salvation to the majority rather than the minority and that the way could be rejected only by rejecting rational thought, similar to the compulsive gambler, who must reject common sense and logic to justify his behaviour.

Actually, if God had a clue, he wouldn't have set mankind up to fail in the first place, thus not needing to save anyone. I mean, how screwed up is this God anyhow that holds out a goodie to people he purposely didn't give the knowledge of good and evil, then punishes them for TAKING IT?!?!?!

And they want us to follow this guy?

No I think some want us to obey him or at least what some one else says is obeying him. But not only that, you are suppose to love him because he sent himself as his son to die for us because it makes him feel good.
Then he decides which ones are going to obey and love him for it before he lets them understand his message which can only be done if he has picked you and has shown you favoritism (grace). He does because he loves us falling worthless gardeners.
It is so beautiful how could anyone refuse such a gift? Because we don’t have a choice because he only reveals to the elect. While it is your fault for not choosing to believe his message out of all the other competing messages. Freewill is like saying it is your fault for not being picked.

[Confused]

As far as I know, this one passage is central to most, if not all, of the Christian gospel.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

If God really loved the people of the world so much, why could he not come up with a plan that would have more people saved?

Why is it that God cannot avert his own wrath without sacrificing his only begotten Son? Why could he not just forgive without the sacrifice?

Why is belief necessary? Why couldn't God just forgive?

This is a too brief simplification.3 questions 3 answers.
1)Why, U know the plan and have rejected,in fact U don't even(quote) "believe He exists."Why would a different plan make any difference? What would U change?What is flawed with this one?
2)Because His creation Adam sinned and lost his a)rule b)relationship c) physical life, as given to him by God. A man lost it, a man had to gain it and restore said. A mere mortal born in sin nature could not.Jesus decided equality with God a thing not to be grasped.It was not only God but Jesus decision also. Jesus laid down His humanity for all man, his friends.
3)Have you ever loved a woman and she didn't return it, in fact was just not responding in kind with love? The harder you loved her, the harder she didn't love you? Thats why!

Biker

Biker

1) only those with ears can hear; If we don't understand his language, then no, we don't know the plan. If his plan can't be put into a form that can be understood, then only those blind with faith can follow. This is where a lot of doomsday cults get blinded. If I remember correctly, no-one knows his plans. If you do, you need to share because the entire world would love to know how you figured out his master plan and why he does some of the things he does. Don't assume that questioning the writings or existence of god/christ is dismissing him. It isn't always the case.

2) Once again, Christ=God. God born as man doesn't make him man. He is still divine. So unless christ was orginally born as man, then god somehow decided to make him his son and place the burden of sacrifice on him, then Jesus never laid down his humanity. He was never human to begin with. Otherwise he would have been a mere mortal man born into sin who wouldn't fit your criteria of one to grant forgiveness for sins. And you say he laid down his false "humanity" for all of mankind, his friends, but he didnt' because he cursed many cities/leaders/people prior to his crucifixion. So it was only for a select breed he sacrificied if he sacrificed at all.

3) You lost me here (as usual). So the harder god tries to love us the more we try not to love him? This is logic??

I understand what you are trying to point out, but there is no simple plan that you seem to adhere to. You believe on faith, this is fine. But the OT and NT are very outdated and very difficult to apply in todays society. Because of the changes in time, I find it difficult to reconcile much of what he wrote with what the world is today. I dont' see a plan that can be applied to todays world and I don't see how one can justify a sacrifice for mans sins when that same person is the one who condemned for the sin to begin with. Why should I place value on it when it was done because of my forfathers sins? Why should I be persecuted for something my great great great grandparents did, then be thankful that a stranger sacrificed himself for it when hes the one who persecuted me for to begin with. See the fallacy here?

[Biker]

1)Why, U know the plan and have rejected, in fact U don't even "believe He exists." Why would a different plan make any difference? What would U change? What is flawed with this one?

One good reason not to believe that God exists is that almost everyone who claims that God exists tell me that he has a plan for the salvation of humans that is not worthy of a loving and powerful God. If God really "so loved the world", then he would he have provided a plan for salvation that would be accessible only to the minority of people?

2)Because His creation Adam sinned and lost his a)rule b)relationship c) physical life, as given to him by God. A man lost it, a man had to gain it and restore said. A mere mortal born in sin nature could not.Jesus decided equality with God a thing not to be grasped.It was not only God but Jesus decision also. Jesus laid down His humanity for all man, his friends.

But why?

And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven."
And some of the scribes said to themselves, "This fellow blasphemes."
And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, "Why are you thinking evil in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, and walk'? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"--then He said to the paralytic, "Get up, pick up your bed and go home."
And he got up and went home.

Jesus seemed to behave as if forgiveness from sins could happen without a bloody sacrifice. Surely God could just say, "You're all forgiven."

3)Have you ever loved a woman and she didn't return it, in fact was just not responding in kind with love? The harder you loved her, the harder she didn't love you? Thats why!

No, Biker, I have not. Whenever any woman that I was interested in was not interested in me (and there have been quite a few ) I wisely choose to leave alone. The kind of love you are talking about is the kind of dysfunctional love that leads psychopaths to commit murder-suicides. Does your God have such insecurity that he needs people to believe in him even when he does not plainly and unambiguously demonstrate his existence?

I answered the question ,you don't like the answer.God is going to prove nothing to you, he has nothing to prove to you. Is God insecure,NO.Obviously your issue with unbelief is that God has not come down off His throne and personally " plainly and unambiguously demonstrated His existence" just for you! The problem is HE DID, but you don't like the demonstration!
This is very simple,God has a plan,its written down, its called the bible.You among others can accept it or not.Most don't including you.I do,I believe the bible therefore it is true to me and for me, sadly, it is not for you. I guess we will see how it works out in the end. Just make sure your opinion is right is about all I could offer you,because your mind is made up as is mine. What in your great wisdom, would you have done differently,or do differently,since you don't like the way the nonGod is doing?

Biker

[Cathar1950]

Biker:

I answered the question ,you don't like the answer.God is going to prove nothing to you, he has nothing to prove to you. Is God insecure,NO.Obviously your issue with unbelief is that God has not come down off His throne and personally " plainly and unambiguously demonstrated His existence" just for you! The problem is HE DID, but you don't like the demonstration!
This is very simple,God has a plan,its written down, its called the bible.You among others can accept it or not.Most don't including you.I do,I believe the bible therefore it is true to me and for me, sadly, it is not for you. I guess we will see how it works out in the end. Just make sure your opinion is right is about all I could offer you,because your mind is made up as is mine. What in your great wisdom, would you have done differently,or do differently,since you don't like the way the nonGod is doing?

You are right God doesn’t prove anything to us. How do you know God isn’t insecure? After all isn’t he is a Jealous God? I don’t think his issue is that obvious or you would have presented it better then a desire to have him come down and personally “plainly and unambiguously demonstrated His existence" just for anyone! The problem is that you think he did and because the reported demonstration is good enough for you it should be good enough for everyone. You say it is the bible, which shows us that the bible is where you place your faith and everything else is secondary. If most including Mack don’t believe your bible and the trust in its ambiguous and varied messages then maybe the problem isn’t with us humans. Maybe the problem is with the humans that so willingly believe what they want to believe from rather questionable sources about ultimate reality. My mind is not made up and I am not going to speak for others but your mind seems closed and I would suspect it is from fear that you are unable to entertain other ideas and doubts. My complaint is not what God is or isn’t doing. I take issue with your claims concerning the bible and your interpretation, which seems largely a projected scheme that makes Jesus a God that died for your sins so you can feel like everything is fixed except what you blame on the unbeliever.