Faith

[Texan Christian]

It really bugs me when people really anyone but generally I only hear it from atheists, that they don't have "faith", and that "faith" is weak. first of all here's a definition of faith: complete trust or confidence in someone or something

And honestly, in any belief a person must have faith. Christians have faith in their beliefs, but atheists and other religions must have faith in what they believe. In fact, honestly, atheists have somewhat more faith than Christians, simply because they believe what they believe even in spite of the evidence against it (many haven't been presented with this evidence though). What're yall's takes on faith and different peoples faith. If I misunderstood anything or something please show me.

Good day and God bless

[tam]

You are basically saying that you can be "good without Jesus".

There are those who do the requirements of the law (of love) NATURALLY, revealing that they have the law written upon their hearts.

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them. This will take place on the day when God judges people's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.



So there are people who are not in Christ, but who show that the law of love is written upon their hearts... because that law is made manifest in what they do.

So this states that non-Christians can be good without having acknowledge Jesus, or believing in Jesus.

They can obey the law (of love) even if they do not believe in or even know Christ exists.

Yes.

Such ones may then be invited into the Kingdom as well... as subjects of the Kingdom. Just as the sheep from the sheep and the goats parable - sheep who are not Christian but are people from the nations - are invited into the Kingdom.

No one can receive eternal life without Christ - as He is the life. And no one can come to the Father except through Christ. And yes, certainly Christ teaches us to love, to forgive, to show mercy, even to one's enemies. To not judge, etc. He also teaches us truth. And there is no judgment for those who are in Christ.


So Christ is certainly needed.

But there are some people of the nations (those who do not know Christ, though they may be known BY Him based on what they DO) who naturally obey the law (of love).

And none of this is relevant to what Christianity preaches at all.

It wouldn't matter if Jesus was "real" and "needed". Christianity (as preached and held up by the bulk of Christian churches and individuals) proclaim that a person must acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ and that he is LORD.

I'm not big on believing things just because Christianity preaches them.

Even so, no one will enter the Kingdom without acknowledging what you have said, as He is the King of that Kingdom. Everyone will see Him.

I think Christianity misses - for the most part - that there are those who rule with Christ (the Bride, His Church),and also those who are invited in as subjects of that Kingdom.

To be a Christian, certainly one would acknowledge that Christ is Lord. (not LORD - all caps - because that inaccurately infers that Christ is God Most High, Himself)

But that wouldn't apply at all, to what you have suggested above. Christianity itself would be totally irrelevant. In fact, it would be irrelevant for a person to acknowledge Jesus at all, or even believe in him.

Irrelevant to what?

Christ would certainly be relevant as to what is true, and to those who wish to know what is true. One does not need to be going after a reward to know or even want to know the Truth. One does not need to be going after a reward to wish to please Him, to want to obey Him, to want to be known by Him, to want to hear Him, to follow Him.

One need only love Him.

In fact, according to the first part of what you wrote even an atheist could be "Within the law of love" and be perfectly fine.

Could be, yes.

Atheists could be just as much in line with the "Law of LOVE" as anyone. So could Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, Mulsims, Jews, etc. Anyone.

Yes.


But there are some who seek God, who seek Christ. There are some who love Christ (and so love God) and so seek to do His will, obeying and following Him, remaining in His word, learning from Him.

He gives such ones who belong to Him a share in His Kingdom. He also teaches such ones the way of peace and love and mercy and justice NOW. He also grants such ones fruits of the spirit, gifts of the spirit. He grants them His peace. he teaches them truth.


So to them Christ - here and now - is very relevant.

For those of us who love Him (and He loved us first) - we WANT to know Him, to be part of His Body, to serve Him and those He loves.

**


And for those in Christ, there is no judgment. Their sins are forgiven (fore- give); they are covered by Him. They take part in the first resurrection, and are priests and kings with Him in His Kingdom. Which allows them to rule with Him, but also to intercede on behalf of people and loved ones (which is what a priest is supposed to do - plead for mercy for the people, not condemn the people - just as Christ is able to plead mercy and forgiveness for us)


Yes, He will also invite into the Kingdom the sheep (from the sheep and the goats parable) who did not know Him. Because they have shown that love is upon their hearts, manifest in what they do. To me... that just shows me yet again how great the love, the justice, the wisdom and the mercy of my Lord and of my God, truly are.


I can supply some corroborating verses if you need them, but it may have to wait until tomorrow because I am falling asleep now...


Peace again to you, DI, and to yours,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

Here is the link to what I shared as I have learned from my Lord on the thread, "A good God would not send a decent atheist to hell."

Page 88, post 877.

It has some of the scriptures that back the position I shared there and here on your thread.


http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... &start=870


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Divine Insight]

It has some of the scriptures that back the position I shared there and here on your thread.

But this thread is about FAITH Tam,

You can't back up "faith" with scriptures. The question is, "Why do you place your faith in these ancient scriptures?"

Just because you placed your faith in them doesn't make them true.

Also you say:

Even so, no one will enter the Kingdom without acknowledging what you have said, as He is the King of that Kingdom. Everyone will see Him.

Again, why place your faith in this?

Why place your faith in the idea that there exists some extreme egotist who demands to be the King of a Kingdom called "Heaven"?

Why does there need to be an ego in charge who demands to be worshiped?

And more important to this thread, "Why do you place your faith in that scenario?"

There are far better pictures of an imagined eternal paradise. Perhaps you aren't aware of them? Or don't understand why they are better?

Instead of imagining the need for an egotistical dictator in a heavenly afterlife why not place your faith in the idea of an afterlife where there is no need for an egotistical dictator?

This is extremely easy to imagine. Just imagine that everyone who makes it there already wants to be a loving caring person and therefore doesn't need any egotistical dictator King ruling over them demanding that they worship him.

In fact, if this "Heaven" even required such a dictator who "Lords" over everyone that would imply that the people who are in this heaven can't even be trusted to be nice people on their own because they need to be ruled over.

How can you not see the problem with that?

The very idea that heaven would need an egotistical ruler who keeps everyone in line is actually a very flawed idea.

And if people who are in heaven don't need to be kept in line, then there would be no need for a ruling dictator "King".

If you have faith to spend, why not spend it on something worthy of placing faith in?

Why not have faith that there exists an eternal life where all nice people go and there is no need for any dictators there because everyone who goes there is naturally nice?

A heaven where there is a dictator Jesus who demands to be worshiped as King is actually a very flawed heaven.

That would basically be nothing more than what we already have here on earth.

In fact, I hold that this entire picture of Heaven being ruled over by a "King God", is actually nothing more than humans projecting what they would imagine to be the ideal mortal arrangement on Earth, where Kings are actually needed to keep people in line because people on Earth aren't naturally nice.

The very scenario that you place your faith in is actually nothing other than an ideal that humans dreamed up based on their mortal need for law and order on Earth.

So basically all you have done is place your FAITH in the idea that heaven is no different from Earth. It will still need a dictating KING who is in charge to keep everyone in line.

But that would be no different from what mortal men already try to do on the Earth.

So the very idea of a Heaven that required a "KING GOD" to rule over the inhabitants is already a grossly flawed idea that is based entirely on the human experience on Earth, where not everyone can be trusted to be "nice".

You are basically placing your FAITH in the idea that heaven isn't any different from Earth save for the fact that it's a totalitarian dictatorship where ONE KING is in charge, and demands to be worshiped and obeyed by everyone.

But with that scenario comes the necessary side-affect that this would require that everyone who is in that heaven NEEDS to be ruled over by an absolute dictator precisely because they can't behave themselves on their own merit.

I suggest to you that a heaven that needs no dictator would be a far greater place.

So Christianity actually represents a very limited thinking. It's extremely mundane and clearly modeled after the earthly behavior of mortal men.

Why place your FAITH in that when far better spiritual pictures of reality are available?

[tam]

It has some of the scriptures that back the position I shared there and here on your thread.

But this thread is about FAITH Tam,

Sure it is... and it is in faith that I heard and believed.

But I was responding specifically about your questions as to who will enter this Kingdom.

However, even that will not be enough for some.

You can't back up "faith" with scriptures.

You can back up the truth that one has received in faith... with what is written. Especially so as to assist others (maybe even yourself, at the start)... who do look to those writings, and who do need something that they can SEE, to help them understand or accept the truth.

The question is, "Why do you place your faith in these ancient scriptures?"

My faith is in Christ. So that is not a question for me.

Just because you placed your faith in them doesn't make them true.

True... if I had put my faith in what is written, that would not make what is written true.

Just as... if I had placed my faith in what I consider to be a better imagining of 'heaven', that would not make what I consider to be a better imagining, true.

Also you say:

Even so, no one will enter the Kingdom without acknowledging what you have said, as He is the King of that Kingdom. Everyone will see Him.

Again, why place your faith in this?

Because of what my Lord has taught or confirmed to me about His Kingdom.

How could a person possible enter a Kingdom of God - the One which has Christ as her King - and so seeing that King, without acknowledging Him?

Why place your faith in the idea that there exists some extreme egotist who demands to be the King of a Kingdom called "Heaven"?

Since this is your own idea and not mine, nor even that of Christianity as far as I know, I am unable to respond to this question, or a few others that are your own ideas.

There are far better pictures of an imagined eternal paradise. Perhaps you aren't aware of them? Or don't understand why they are better?

Does that matter to whether or not something is true?

And 'better' is a subjective term. What one person considers better, another person may consider worse.

It matters what is TRUE.


My Lord deserves to be the King of that Kingdom. He deserves that honor and the love that comes with that honor. People themselves would want Him to be King BECAUSE of their love for Him, and because HE has proven what He does with His power and His authority:

He teaches truth; He does not oppress; He gives His life on behalf of His bride; He serves those He loves. He GIVES life.

So yes, He does deserve to be the heir of that Kingdom, as well as all the adulation, and love and reverence that comes with this. All to the glory of His Father, of whom He is the Truth and Image, from whom He was born.

These are all reasons God has GIVEN Him all authority and power; and why God has made Him the heir of this kingdom.


He does not rule as the kings we have been given on the earth rule - He rules with truth and righteousness. And if His rulership - that He chooses to share with all those who belong to Him; out of love for them - does not require that He 'dictate' the lives of His subjects, then that just means He is an AWESOME King, of an AWESOME Kingdom, Son of an AWESOME God.


But at least at the beginning of His establishment of His Kingdom upon the earth, there is the ongoing separation of the sheep and the goats, and so the ongoing entrance of the sheep into the Kingdom.

They at least need some healing (from lies and falsehoods, and the effects of such).

And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.


So one should be able to see how some assistance in some matters may be needed among them, even if just at first.


After that, maybe nothing will be needed. But if is ever needed, then there are those who are in a position as needed.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Divine Insight]

The question is, "Why do you place your faith in these ancient scriptures?"

My faith is in Christ. So that is not a question for me.

You wouldn't even have a clue what a "Christ" is if it wasn't for these ancient scriptures. If you place your faith in "Christ" then you are definitely placing your faith in ancient Christian scriptures. There is nothing outside of this dogma that would inform you that a "Christ" even exists.

You can back up the truth that one has received in faith... with what is written.

Just because there are ancient written stories about a demigod called "The Christ" doesn't make it true.


No, you can't. And the reason that you can't back it up as "Truth" is because there is no guarantee that just because something was "written" it must be true.

If that were the case then the Qur'an of Islam would be faith backed up with what is written too.

In fact, all the ancient Gods would then need to be seen as true since they were all written about.

So nice try, but no, if someone taught you that the Bible is true simply because it is written words, they told you a falsehood. Writing something down doesn't make it true.

Apparently you are placing your FAITH in those who have taught you that this religion is true. That's understandable and explains why religious people are most often the very same religions of the family or culture they were raised in.

It matters what is TRUE.

But in this thread we're talking about placing FAITH in something that we cannot know is true. If you want to argue that Christianity must be true, that wouldn't be an argument of FAITH, it would be an argument that tries to make a case why the Bible should be believed.

My Lord deserves to be the King of that Kingdom. He deserves that honor and the love that comes with that honor. People themselves would want Him to be King BECAUSE of their love for Him, and because HE has proven what He does with His power and His authority:

There isn't any evidence that this alleged demigod ever existed much less that he has proven anything. Everything you have stated about is your FAITH. That is what you have placed your FAITH in.

But at least at the beginning of His establishment of His Kingdom upon the earth, there is the ongoing separation of the sheep and the goats, and so the ongoing entrance of the sheep into the Kingdom.

And why did this demigod/King/Creator create "goats" in the first place?

If he wanted a kingdom of sheep and he's an omnipotent creator, then why not just create sheep and be done with it?

As I have already mentioned in a previous post. If you're going to place your faith in ancient fairy tales, why not choose one where the creator never created any goats in the first place?

Then you wouldn't have the problem of having to deal with all those nasty goats.

[Donray]

[Replying to post 44 by tam]

How can you say faith is truth? Little girls have faith that unicorns are real does this faith have truth in it? What I=s the difference between your faith that God exists and the little girl knowing that unicorns exist?

Just because you have faith does not mean that what you have faith in is real.

You also mention goodness of your god. Do you know that God/Jesus murdered babies by drowning them? Read what atrocities your God/Jesus committed. Allowed rape, murder firstborn, destroyed cites with fire, etc.

What is your faith? That you will have an afterlife? I have meet no Christian that will discuss what heaven in the afterlife would be like. They have no idea what entertainment will be available along with must other things about heaven. But your faith is all you have that this life is not all you have,

No one can disagree in your faith of a god, but there is no proof of a god nor any proof that most of the bible is true. Not one bit of proof for example about Moses fairy tail.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 46 by Donray]

"You also mention goodness of your god. Do you know that God/Jesus murdered babies by drowning them? Read what atrocities your God/Jesus committed. Allowed rape, murder firstborn, destroyed cites with fire, etc. "

This is not Jesus teaching.
Discuss Judaism will clarify it for you.

[Donray]

[Replying to post 46 by Donray]

"You also mention goodness of your god. Do you know that God/Jesus murdered babies by drowning them? Read what atrocities your God/Jesus committed. Allowed rape, murder firstborn, destroyed cites with fire, etc. "

This is not Jesus teaching.
Discuss Judaism will clarify it for you.

Have you herd of the trinity where Christians believe that God is the same as Jesus? Therefore it was Jesus that did everything described in the Old Testament. If Jesus is not the same god then you believe in at least two deities.

Keep in mind that God is unchanging, therefore Jesus is the same vindictive god described in the OT.

[tam]

The question is, "Why do you place your faith in these ancient scriptures?"

My faith is in Christ. So that is not a question for me.

You wouldn't even have a clue what a "Christ" is if it wasn't for these ancient scriptures.

Untrue.

Using a hypothetical (although it is true)... if Christ exists and speaks, then there will always be some who hear Him and bear witness to Him; even if there were no bible.


My faith is in HIM.


Not only that, but just because there are people (or written testimonies) who point to Christ and bear witness to Him, does not mean that people do not then go TO Christ, Himself. Perhaps to start out, some simply hear the truth in the things that Christ is written to have said. So that they choose to follow Him, as his disciple, obeying His word, out of love for Him.

**

The finger pointing to the moon is not the moon. Some people never look away from the finger, that is true. Some people turn and look at the moon.

If you place your faith in "Christ" then you are definitely placing your faith in ancient Christian scriptures. There is nothing outside of this dogma that would inform you that a "Christ" even exists.

Except for God, for Christ Himself, for those who do know and hear Him, and so bear witness to Him.

You can back up the truth that one has received in faith... with what is written.

Just because there are ancient written stories about a demigod called "The Christ" doesn't make it true.

Correct.

No, you can't. And the reason that you can't back it up as "Truth" is because there is no guarantee that just because something was "written" it must be true.

Back it up... meaning to show from another source/witness... that what you have shared is in line with what Christ is written to have said, or other witnesses have said/written.

No one is saying - or at least I am not saying - that something is true because it is written.

If that were the case then the Qur'an of Islam would be faith backed up with what is written too.

In fact, all the ancient Gods would then need to be seen as true since they were all written about.

Correct, in theory, but I am not saying what you are saying.

So nice try, but no, if someone taught you that the Bible is true simply because it is written words, they told you a falsehood. Writing something down doesn't make it true.

No one taught me that and I do not believe that.

Apparently you are placing your FAITH in those who have taught you that this religion is true. That's understandable and explains why religious people are most often the very same religions of the family or culture they were raised in.

Except that you have misunderstood my position.

It matters what is TRUE.

But in this thread we're talking about placing FAITH in something that we cannot know is true.

You may be talking about that. I just responded to something in your post.

My faith is in someONE I know is true: Christ.

If you want to argue that Christianity must be true, that wouldn't be an argument of FAITH, it would be an argument that tries to make a case why the Bible should be believed.

I do not argue that Christianity is true.

I bear witness to Christ. He is the one who is true.

My Lord deserves to be the King of that Kingdom. He deserves that honor and the love that comes with that honor. People themselves would want Him to be King BECAUSE of their love for Him, and because HE has proven what He does with His power and His authority:

There isn't any evidence that this alleged demigod ever existed much less that he has proven anything. Everything you have stated about is your FAITH. That is what you have placed your FAITH in.

Well, as you have said, this is a thread on faith.

But at least at the beginning of His establishment of His Kingdom upon the earth, there is the ongoing separation of the sheep and the goats, and so the ongoing entrance of the sheep into the Kingdom.

And why did this demigod/King/Creator create "goats" in the first place?

He did not. Men make goats of themselves. The sheep in that parable are those who do good to even the least of his brothers (not knowingly for gain... but rather because they have the law of love upon their hearts, made manifest in what they DO). The goats are exactly the opposite.

What they do (or don't do) reveals what is in them.

Have you read the parable?



Peace again to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Donray]

your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Why would you admit your a servant and slave. What you are saying is that God/Jesus is forcible holding you as a slave.

SLAVE: someone who is legally owned by another person and is forced to work for that person without pay. : a person who is strongly influenced and controlled by something.

You have failed to address the issue that Jesus is God and therefore Jesus vindictively murdered babies and children.

Also, what is your definition of SHEEP? Most definitions are very derogatory.