Is the concept of Original Sin fair?

[Metatron]

I have some concerns about the fairness of Original Sin and would be interested other forum members opinion on this issue.

One of my concerns deals with the account as presented in Genesis. God tells Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil otherwise he will die. Later of course, Adam and Eve are seduced by that rascally serpent, God banishes them from Eden, and death is brought into the world, etc. The problem I have with this is that by definition, not having yet partaken of the famous apple, Adam and Eve have no concept of good and evil and indeed the threat of death is meaningless to them since they also would have no understanding of what death is! Adam and Eve are innocents who have no moral compass with which to make the decision. Its like telling a toddler who has never been disciplined not to eat the really neat looking poisoned candy and then walking away and seeing what happens.


Another thing that bugs me is the implied concept of inheritability of sin, i.e. Adam and Eve sin so everyone else to the umpteenth generation is equally culpable and has a one-way ticket punched to the Really Hot Place. Where is the personal responsibility in that? Indeed, where is free will if the punishment is already in place without a decision having been made? I would think that God at least would want to punish you for the sins that YOU have committed.

Thank you for your time.

[FiredUp4jesus]

Absolutely, God has known everything we are ever going to think, say or do since before the dawn of time.

Then there is no free will. Period. There are a specific set of events that WILL happen. God already knows what those events are. How can I alter those events? There is only free will if I can alter those events and God has no idea what I will alter.
Come on Firedup4J! You are one of the brighter bulbs in this forum - I expect more. This is as straightforward as anything I have ever read on this forum.

I admit that I struggled greatly with this concept for quite a while. You really have to take God at His word to get it. God is all knowing, but knowing what is going to happen is not the same thing as causing it to happen. I used a pot being pushed off a balcony in an earlier post. I'll bet Metatron remembers it. Anyway, if someone pushes the plant off the balcony, you know the outcome because of the laws of gravity. But your knowledge doesn't cause the destruction of the plant. Yes, God already knows what you are going to do, but he is not using His infinite power to cause you to sin. That's the difference. You may not be able to "change the outcome," but you are still responsible for the choices you make. So, I've got a challenge for you. Show me how God's foreknowledge of a sinful act, let's say a big fat lie, actually causes me to lie. Remember you have to prove that God is making me lie.

[Goat]

What good is free will if all morality is made irrelevant? Since we are born pre-judged as guilty of sin, our moral choices in life literally make no difference! Murderers and child molesters who find Jesus at the end of their lives theoretically go to heaven. The Hindu equivalent of Mother Theresa goes to hell. God apparently doesn't really give a damn how we live are lives, he's only interested in our fawning worship of him.

I don't know where you got your degree in theology Metatron, but I'm sure glad I don't go to your church. But seriously, we are not born pre-judged, our choices in life make all the difference, and what God cares about more is not what you did, but why you did it. Let's say Mother Theresa's real motive was not helping all those poor starving people in India, her real motive was all the praise and adoration she received for all the work she did. A perfect judge would take that into account. But only God knows the heart, and rest assured that He knows yours as well. Quit comparing yourself to others, you're not going to be judged by comparing your accomplishments with the people around you. You are going to be judged by Perfection Himself, the Holy One, the All Knowing Judge.

In your opinion, does God know all the choices we will make before we are even presented with them? Does God know all the choices we will make before we are born?

Absolutely, God has known everything we are ever going to think, say or do since before the dawn of time.

In your opinion, did God create all things?

[Cmass]

You may not be able to "change the outcome," but you are still responsible for the choices you make.

This is the conundrum.

[FiredUp4jesus]

What good is free will if all morality is made irrelevant? Since we are born pre-judged as guilty of sin, our moral choices in life literally make no difference! Murderers and child molesters who find Jesus at the end of their lives theoretically go to heaven. The Hindu equivalent of Mother Theresa goes to hell. God apparently doesn't really give a damn how we live are lives, he's only interested in our fawning worship of him.

I don't know where you got your degree in theology Metatron, but I'm sure glad I don't go to your church. But seriously, we are not born pre-judged, our choices in life make all the difference, and what God cares about more is not what you did, but why you did it. Let's say Mother Theresa's real motive was not helping all those poor starving people in India, her real motive was all the praise and adoration she received for all the work she did. A perfect judge would take that into account. But only God knows the heart, and rest assured that He knows yours as well. Quit comparing yourself to others, you're not going to be judged by comparing your accomplishments with the people around you. You are going to be judged by Perfection Himself, the Holy One, the All Knowing Judge.

In your opinion, does God know all the choices we will make before we are even presented with them? Does God know all the choices we will make before we are born?

Absolutely, God has known everything we are ever going to think, say or do since before the dawn of time.

In your opinion, did God create all things?

I get the feeling I'm being set up...yes God created everything in our Universe time, space, matter all of it.

[Goat]

I get the feeling I'm being set up...yes God created everything in our Universe time, space, matter all of it.

Yes, but only in pointing out some of areas of your belief that will not seem proper to many.

1) God created all beings. He knew what their choices will be before he created the universe.

2) God will then condemn or reward all beings based on their choices, which he knew would happen before he created the universe.

If God created the universe differently, we could have made different choices.

This eliminates us 'making choices', since God knew what choices everyone would make for the entire history of the universe even before he created the universe.

IF you believe that God knows what choices we will make, you elminate 'free will'. That makes the punishments of God capricious at the very best.

[Cmass]

I get the feeling I'm being set up

Well, of course you're being set up. The whole thing has been a set up from the start. God already knows what you are going to say, think and do next. (Yes, he does indeed know about that bookmarked Christian soft porn site. You might want to erase it. Now)

God even knows you will eventually become an atheist!

I have been sent here as a guardian angel in the guise of an atheist in order to test your faith. Thus far, you are passing the test well. As you work to pass your test, your faith will grow stronger. But then, something will happen in your life that will render my trip here to earth ultimately fruitless because you will become an atheist anyway. (no, I won't tell you what it is - but it has something to do with your Church...and a really, really funny joke and a midget and some pirates and pasta)

I'm really, really sorry to have to tell you this FdUp4Jesus but God thinks it only fair to let you know: You cannot change this outcome. You do have free will, but you cannot change the outcome: You will become an atheist. Period.

Just so you and your atheist friends on this forum know, here is how it works:

God created everything and set in motion a series of events that He himself controls. Obviously, if he did not have control, then it would be a random universe.
Within that universe he created little creatures known as "humans". He created these beings with a story line that they cannot change. God knows the beginning and the end of the story already. The humans cannot change the outcome of the story - if they could, God would NOT KNOW what was going to happen next which, once again, would imply randomness.

However, he also gave these creatures "free will". This means they are free to make any choice they want to. However, that is only an illusion because whatever choice they make won't change what will happen next because that would introduce randomness that would change the story line .....which cannot happen.

Confusing? God already knows you will be confused by this explanation and knows what you are going to think next.
(Yep, he knows about that too.
Yep, even that. Yes sir, He told me to tell you He knows you are now freaking out a bit about Him being inside your head)

He knows you are a bit miffed at my smarty pants-ness and quoting of alternate scripture such as Annie Lennox. He knows you are doing some serious mental gymnastics on how to prove "free will" exists in a world where you cannot change the outcome of anything.
But relax....your atheist brothers will come to your aid soon enough....
But your one-way ticket to Satan's Gardens has already been purchased and there is not a Gaul Darned thing you can do about it.
Praise God.

[Cmass]

I admit that I struggled greatly with this concept for quite a while. You really have to take God at His word to get it.

Struggling with concepts is VERY healthy. As an atheist I commend you for this and encourage all Christians to push the boundaries of their comfortability.

However, taking

God at his word

throws a wrench in the gears of thought. The fact is, you could ask many, many Christians and get many, many answers as to what God's word really is on any subject.
Think for yourself. What do YOU think about "free will"? What do YOU think makes sense? Not what do you think God says in the bible. Quoting scripture bores me to tears. It shows no original thought. I really think you DO have the capability of original thought and your struggle shows it.
Keep going.
As an atheist, if I could convert all Christians to think for themselves, I would be very pleased with myself. They can continue with their mythology but not their robotic, blind faith. That is boring, and dangerous.

[AB]

Wrong. The original sin is not the reason we were born

Wrong. Without The Fall, we would not exist, we would not have ever been born.

The fact Adam and Eve were man and women and God told them to multiply is the reason we exist. Take the fall out, Adam and Eve still are present and God's request to multiply still remains.

Calling the Fall the reason we exist borders on Lunacy.

[AB]

Wrong. God did not make us Sin. We chose it.

That is rather overstated. I hardly see where humans have chose to sin or be sinners. This also assumes the concept of sin and the fall and I find that unsupportable.

Ok, so you say there is a peson in the world that is sinless?

[AB]

As an atheist, if I could convert all Christians to think for themselves, I would be very pleased with myself. They can continue with their mythology but not their robotic, blind faith. That is boring, and dangerous.

What has thinking for yourself ever got you? I equate that to living in a dark room: "Hurray! I am thinking for myself... now what..."