How would you react to Adam and Eve?

[OnceConvinced]

Adam and Steve... I mean Eve... were supposedly responsible for the fall of man. Due to their disobedience all of mankind was cast out of the Garden of Eden and suffering was piled upon them. Some even believe that sin corrupted the world and animals that were once herbivores became carnivores. Animals that were once harmless became venomous. Some believe that viruses and disease sprouted up as a result of sin entering creation.

Adam and Eve were the ones responsible for this, so surely everyone should be enraged at them? When you get to Heaven, surely, you will want to kick their asses for being so stupid and sentencing mankind to suffering on Earth?

Or do you see them as innocent beings in a dirty trick played by God? That God set them up to fail? Do you see God as the one responsible for all the suffering, so you don't blame Adam and Eve for what's happened?

Or perhaps you are even delighted that Adam and Eve did what they did, because you got to live a pretty cool life on a pretty cool planet. So you are grateful for their disobedience?

What do you think of Adam and Eve?

How would YOU react to Adam and Eve if you met them in Heaven?

[ttruscott]

...

I contend that they were NOT created in the garden but arrived there as sinners.

On what do you base this contention? Please provide a biblical verse to support your opinion.

The explanation of the parable of the good but sinful seed: Matt 13:36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.�

37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil.

People are separated into the two groups of good but sinful seed and the tares BEFORE they are sowed into the world by two different people...and sowed cannot refer to their creation because the devil sows too and he can't create.

So with that idea in mind we have Adam having his eyes opened to his sin which is the nakedness he had before he ate (and not his eating) especially in light of the fact that the word naked and the word cunning used to describe the serpent's evil is the same word in the Hebrew!

We try to instill in our children, from an early age through adolescence and beyond, a sense of morality, a knowledge of right and wrong. God created A&E wholly formed, including their level of morality. A level of morality that he knew beforehand would ensure their disobedience.

I deny that they were created in the garden but were sown into it as sinners. I also contend that your sentence "God created A&E wholly formed, including their level of morality." is unproven and suspect it can't be defended.

The effect so the fall were not due to the sins of A&E but to the creation of sin.

Created how? By whom?

Created by some of the people created in HIS image by a free will decision to go against HIM or HIS plan for our creation.

Judgements upon sin are not their fault either but the fault of the sinners so judged though judgements entered into the earthly economy with Adam when he brought his sin into the world when he was breathed into his body.

Huh? Please clarify.

Please be specific - I will not write out the whole book of my theology.

I would also stand against the rendering you chose of Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children.
and would go instead with the interpretation that it means
Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children;

Translations upon translations and interpretations upon interpretations. You pick and choose which you prefer and which to disregard.

Of course or are you offering something more than a tautology that I am missing?

[ecco]

[Replying to post 37 by ecco]

Not only did god set them up to fail, he knew they would fail and he knew it before he ever created them.

Knowing someone is going to fail does not mean you set them up to fail. But it can mean that you are able to make provisions beforehand, so that -despite your warnings and guidance to the person to avoid wrong choices that will bring them harm - the person cannot fail beyond recovery... and can instead LEARN from their failure, becoming stronger and wiser for it.

tammy

Knowing someone is going to fail does not mean you set them up to fail.

Generally speaking, that may be true. In the case of The Creation, it is clear that god did set them up to fail.

• He knew beforehand that, when challenged, they would fail.

Yes, hence He could already make provisions to help them when they chose wrong.

Oh, you mean like he planned ahead to drown everyone and start over?

(ecco) He created them with a certain level of morality that ensured they would "eat the apple"[/list]

He created them with the ability to choose for themselves.

They did choose, based on the level of morality he instilled into them - not a very good level of morality - perhaps none at all. So that must have been part of his plan.

Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

You are not my servant. I do not want servants and I detest slavery, in any form.

[ecco]

...

I contend that they were NOT created in the garden but arrived there as sinners.

On what do you base this contention? Please provide a biblical verse to support your opinion.

The explanation of the parable of the good but sinful seed: Matt 13:36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.�

37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil.

People are separated into the two groups of good but sinful seed and the tares BEFORE they are sowed into the world by two different people...and sowed cannot refer to their creation because the devil sows too and he can't create.

So with that idea in mind we have Adam having his eyes opened to his sin which is the nakedness he had before he ate (and not his eating) especially in light of the fact that the word naked and the word cunning used to describe the serpent's evil is the same word in the Hebrew!

We try to instill in our children, from an early age through adolescence and beyond, a sense of morality, a knowledge of right and wrong. God created A&E wholly formed, including their level of morality. A level of morality that he knew beforehand would ensure their disobedience.

I deny that they were created in the garden but were sown into it as sinners. I also contend that your sentence "God created A&E wholly formed, including their level of morality." is unproven and suspect it can't be defended.

The effect so the fall were not due to the sins of A&E but to the creation of sin.

Created how? By whom?

Created by some of the people created in HIS image by a free will decision to go against HIM or HIS plan for our creation.

Judgements upon sin are not their fault either but the fault of the sinners so judged though judgements entered into the earthly economy with Adam when he brought his sin into the world when he was breathed into his body.

Huh? Please clarify.

Please be specific - I will not write out the whole book of my theology.

I would also stand against the rendering you chose of Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children.
and would go instead with the interpretation that it means
Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children;

Translations upon translations and interpretations upon interpretations. You pick and choose which you prefer and which to disregard.

Of course or are you offering something more than a tautology that I am missing?

RE:

I contend that they were NOT created in the garden but arrived there as sinners.

So with that idea in mind we have Adam having his eyes opened to his sin which is the nakedness he had before he ate (and not his eating) especially in light of the fact that the word naked and the word cunning used to describe the serpent's evil is the same word in the Hebrew!

Genesis 2-25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

Genesis 3-6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

They were not ashamed of their nakedness before eating, they were ashamed after eating.

Genesis 2-15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden
18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.�
20 ...But for Adam no suitable helper was found.
21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with flesh.
22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.



Adam is in Eden, god took his rib, made Eve.

Clearly Eve was created in Eden.

Why do you disregard Genesis?

RE:

ecco:

Translations upon translations and interpretations upon interpretations. You pick and choose which you prefer and which to disregard.

ttruscott:

Of course or are you offering something more than a tautology that I am missing?

Do you consider the bible to be the "true word of god"? If so, how can you disregard parts of it?

[jgh7]

Very interesting OP.

I view Adam and Eve as children. They disobeyed god and did a thing they weren't supposed to. Eve was persuaded into doing it by the devil who is extremely smart and crafty.

In real life, I view it as if I had a kid, and that kid was persuaded to steal something by a malevolent crafty adult stranger.

I would know that my child did wrong, but also that they were naive and persuaded by someone far craftier and smarter than them. Still, I would have to punish or teach them the error of their ways. I would obviously forgive them, but it doesn't stop the consequences from arising.

That's the closest I can think of to how God handled the situation. I don't know if it was solely a punishment that they had to leave the garden. I think God must also have known that it was necessary for them now to leave. For what reason I do not know.

[ttruscott]

...

RE:

I contend that they were NOT created in the garden but arrived there as sinners.

So with that idea in mind we have Adam having his eyes opened to his sin which is the nakedness he had before he ate (and not his eating) especially in light of the fact that the word naked and the word cunning used to describe the serpent's evil is the same word in the Hebrew!

Genesis 2-25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

Genesis 3-6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

They were not ashamed of their nakedness before eating, they were ashamed after eating.

I offer you exegesis, you give me sectarian interpretation. Why were they ashamed when their eyes were opened? They saw their sin, right, their nakedness and it shamed them, right? BUT being naked as in unclothed with your spouse and as GOD created you is not sinful so there is no reason for them to see sin in their nakedness! Unless it is a euphemism for sinfulness as it is openly used for the cunning of the serpent and as it Rev 23:17 relates the sin of nakedness to the sin of blindness to spiritual reality, the blindness Eve exhibited in treating the serpent as a mentor or pastor or at least, someone to talk over the serious questions of faith with, rather than her worst enemy.

Genesis 2-15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden
18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.�

This NOT GOOD comes after the very good of Gen 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. So within the very good is a not good that has become good, that is, that has been fixed. Therefore it is no longer any surprise if we find other not goods before they ate, eh? Such as the fall of the demonic angels which provided the serpent for the story?

20 ...But for Adam no suitable helper was found.

Wait a minute...a little thing called context has been ignored here. Gen 2:18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.�

19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals. But for Adam no suitable helper was found.

The phrase "But for Adam no suitable helper was found." is directly tied to the context of Adam naming the animals AND LOOKING FOR HIS BRIDE AMONG THEM!!! Whose idea was this? Not GOD's, HE had Eve planned. Not the serpent's, he is somewhere in the background. It must have been Adam's idea, right. So if GOD had Eve planned, how can we say that Adam was being faithful to HIS GOD by searching in the animals for a mate?

If someone did not know your interpretation of this story would not they read it like I do? It takes a whole theology to corrupt stories that are so straight forward.

So not only do we have the fallen angels, the serpent of evil and a nakedness that is evil all before they ate the fruit, we also have Adam rebelling against Eve as his mate.

Clearly Eve was created in Eden.

Adam's body was made from dust and Eve's body was made from his rib. But there is no proof that the life GOD breathed into Adam was not Adam's pre-existent spirit, moved from Sheol to the garden on HIS breath. Nor is it against what is written that it just does not mention that Eve's sprit was also breathed into her new rib body as a relocation of her spirit from sheol to the garden.

If our spirits are created on earth at conception or at birth, how do you explain Matt 13:36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.�

37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

BOTH the Son of Man and the devil sow people into the world. Sow cannot mean to create because the devil does it too therefore it must be being used in its ordinary sense of 'to move from a place of storage to a place of growth.' Apply this to Genesis and who is disregarding what?

Do you consider the bible to be the "true word of god"? If so, how can you disregard parts of it?

I do regard it as such and yet I disregard blasphemies in the name of GOD. I gave you a word to parse, `arm, naked or cunning, which you disregarded because of a sectarian interpretation. I encourage you to look at what is there and to quit disregarding that which does not fit your pre-conceived notions that you were taught in Wed. night bible study.

[wannabe]

[Replying to OnceConvinced]

Regardless of the outcome, Adam and Eve did sin against God and if I met them in heaven it would only be because God has forgiven them as also myself and I would welcome their friendship.

[rikuoamero]

Very interesting OP.

I view Adam and Eve as children. They disobeyed god and did a thing they weren't supposed to. Eve was persuaded into doing it by the devil who is extremely smart and crafty.

In real life, I view it as if I had a kid, and that kid was persuaded to steal something by a malevolent crafty adult stranger.

I would know that my child did wrong, but also that they were naive and persuaded by someone far craftier and smarter than them. Still, I would have to punish or teach them the error of their ways. I would obviously forgive them, but it doesn't stop the consequences from arising.

That's the closest I can think of to how God handled the situation. I don't know if it was solely a punishment that they had to leave the garden. I think God must also have known that it was necessary for them now to leave. For what reason I do not know.

Then you're a far better parent than the god from the Genesis story. You don't punish your child's children or their descendents. You don't alter reality such that death is now a thing that happens to living organisms.
You also, I presume wouldn't leave the thing they are not supposed to eat in the middle of the garden, freely accessible and use reverse psychology on them?
If I honestly don't want my child to eat from the cookie jar (maybe those cookies weren't cooked right, and have a high risk of food poisoning?) I wouldn't leave them freely accessible and then leave them on their own. I'd put them away first.

[puddleglum]

[Replying to post 1 by OnceConvinced]

Adam and Eve were the ones responsible for this, so surely everyone should be enraged at them? When you get to Heaven, surely, you will want to kick their asses for being so stupid and sentencing mankind to suffering on Earth?

The fact that they are in Heaven shows that God has forgiven them. In that case I will have no right to condemn then. Besides, I have often chosen to disobey God so I am just as guilty as they are.

[ttruscott]

...

Oh, you mean like he planned ahead to drown everyone and start over?

Yes, HE planned the flood before the creation of the world as a lesson to HIS church of the end times that even if the whole world is against you and full of violence continually, HE can and will get us through.

(ecco) He created them with a certain level of morality that ensured they would "eat the apple"[/list]

He created them with the ability to choose for themselves.

They did choose, based on the level of morality he instilled into them - not a very good level of morality - perhaps none at all. So that must have been part of his plan.

Their created morality had nothing to do with their fall since GOD has no need to create anyone sinful and thus go against HIS righteousness, dividing HIS HOLY house... Every person created in HIS image was created ingenuously innocent with the perfect ability and opportunity to choose to become perfectly good or perfectly (that is eternally) evil.

That this approach answers the problem you present while keeping true to the written record of the story makes it superior to your contentions of HIS creating them to fall. HE created us to be HIS Bride - what possible reason could HE have to make us certain to fall and to set us up to be the most evil, vile and sick people in creation?? HE cannot and will not marry any evil person so it is impossible for HIM to have made us anything but innocent and all sin was created by us by our free will decisions to reject HIM or HIS plans.

[ttruscott]

...

Adam is in Eden, god took his rib, made Eve.

Clearly Eve was created in Eden.

Why do you disregard Genesis?

Why do you disregard Matt 13, the parable of the good but sinful seed that tells us we are sown, not created, into the world?

We know Adam's BODY was formed (NOT created) on earth and then he was breathed into it to give it life so why ignore the fact that once HE made (not created) Eve's body from the rib HE may have breathed her into her body as HE did Adam?

IF Job was created on earth, how could he return to his life before his birth or do you think he was claiming to literally go back to his mother's womb? Job 1:21 And Job said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb and naked shall I return thither. If the wicked were created on earth, how can they return (on their death) to sheol, a place they have never been: Psalm 9:17 The wicked shall return to Sheol ...
Kiel - Delitzsch(#16) - Yea, back to Hades must the wicked return...

ecco:
Do you consider the bible to be the "true word of god"? If so, how can you disregard parts of it?

I obviously do not disregard the Bible at all as some few here can attest but I very much disregard the blasphemy of so called orthodox interpretations of the Bible about our creation and the fall. Those who equate their own favourite interpretation as the only interpretation possible impel me to wander on after awhile...<sigh>.