Why do you believe in Creationism or Evolution?

[emmy27sf]

so why do u believe in evolution or creationism???

[chrispalasz]

Christianity had roughly a millenium of nearly unchallenged hegemony over Europe with the net result being that a major civilization collapsed, many smaller cultures were displaced if not eradicated, and scientific discoveries ground to almost a screeching halt since people who are too busy trying to survive and avoid being executed/tortured for heresy tend not to have much time or inclination for such things.

Nice try. But let's replace the word "Christianity" with "humanity" - to be accurate.

Some of us do understand and acknowledge that we don't know about the fundamental foundations of the universe, while others in their presumption claim to have such knowledge without giving justification. Who is the more foolish?

So you don't think there's a God. I am admitting that I do know something you don't know. But I'm not saying that this knowledge makes me in any way better than you. Quite the contrary. I'm a worthless, pitiable piece of trash scum and sinner, along with all of humanity, and that is what I am professing to be. It is that attitude and knowledge that leads us to God.

The existance of God is not something to be grasped.

[Lucifer]

Christianity had roughly a millenium of nearly unchallenged hegemony over Europe with the net result being that a major civilization collapsed, many smaller cultures were displaced if not eradicated, and scientific discoveries ground to almost a screeching halt since people who are too busy trying to survive and avoid being executed/tortured for heresy tend not to have much time or inclination for such things.

Nice try. But let's replace the word "Christianity" with "humanity" - to be accurate.

Some of us do understand and acknowledge that we don't know about the fundamental foundations of the universe, while others in their presumption claim to have such knowledge without giving justification. Who is the more foolish?

So you don't think there's a God. I am admitting that I do know something you don't know. But I'm not saying that this knowledge makes me in any way better than you. Quite the contrary. I'm a worthless, pitiable piece of trash scum and sinner, along with all of humanity, and that is what I am professing to be. It is that attitude and knowledge that leads us to God.

The existance of God is not something to be grasped.

Humanity doesn't suppress scientific discoveries. Only certain groups have a problem with it. You say the existence of God is not something to be grasped, yet you imply that God somehow exists. Are you contradicting yourself, or is this poorly worded?

[ENIGMA]

Christianity had roughly a millenium of nearly unchallenged hegemony over Europe with the net result being that a major civilization collapsed, many smaller cultures were displaced if not eradicated, and scientific discoveries ground to almost a screeching halt since people who are too busy trying to survive and avoid being executed/tortured for heresy tend not to have much time or inclination for such things.

Nice try. But let's replace the word "Christianity" with "humanity" - to be accurate.

Oh no, the Dark and Middle Ages were certainly Christianity's main times of widespread acceptance and enforcement. Although, I must admit I gave the religion too much credit for the downfall of Rome, overextension does that even to the most civil societies.

Why does the major technological and scientific development come onto the scene only with the rise of secularism and the Enlightenment?

Some of us do understand and acknowledge that we don't know about the fundamental foundations of the universe, while others in their presumption claim to have such knowledge without giving justification. Who is the more foolish?

So you don't think there's a God. I am admitting that I do know something you don't know.

Yes, and what you deny implicitly is the idea that your knowledge could be incorrect. I try to make few such assumptions about the validity of my knowledge, but there comes a point where some things must be taken for granted to understand anything.

Unfortunately for you, God is not on the list.

But I'm not saying that this knowledge makes me in any way better than you. Quite the contrary. I'm a worthless, pitiable piece of trash scum and sinner, along with all of humanity, and that is what I am professing to be.

Good for you. Nice to get the Medieval serf mindset going again.

It is that attitude and knowledge that leads us to God.

...or to depression and eventual apathy for life. Either way...

The existance of God is not something to be grasped.

Only because there is nothing there for one to hold on to.

[chrispalasz]

Oh no, the Dark and Middle Ages were certainly Christianity's main times of widespread acceptance and enforcement. Although, I must admit I gave the religion too much credit for the downfall of Rome, overextension does that even to the most civil societies.

Why does the major technological and scientific development come onto the scene only with the rise of secularism and the Enlightenment?

What about Asia? What about America at the time? What about South America? What about Latin America? Where were the great scientific and technological advancements in those parts of the world with the absence of Christianity?

Aside from that, you hadn't even mentioned the "Dark and Middle Ages" until the quote above.

I would like you to specifically address the part regarding Asia. Belief in God has been a major player in that part of the world - and that remains true to this day.

[Lucifer]

Oh no, the Dark and Middle Ages were certainly Christianity's main times of widespread acceptance and enforcement. Although, I must admit I gave the religion too much credit for the downfall of Rome, overextension does that even to the most civil societies.

Why does the major technological and scientific development come onto the scene only with the rise of secularism and the Enlightenment?

What about Asia? What about America at the time? What about South America? What about Latin America? Where were the great scientific and technological advancements in those parts of the world with the absence of Christianity?

Aside from that, you hadn't even mentioned the "Dark and Middle Ages" until the quote above.

I would like you to specifically address the part regarding Asia. Belief in God has been a major player in that part of the world - and that remains true to this day.

Asia had some sort of science. In fact, they invented our paper money, our fireworks and gun powder and other such things. They didn't have science in the same way the western world did, but they had it alright, and it is mutually exclusive from religion. Heck, even the Greeks didn't have Christianity and they had great advancements in philosophy, sciences and art. Even Olmec (which is a Mesoamerican civilization) had their own system of ducts for agriculture, calendars and such, and they didn't have Christianity. Mesopotamian civilization also had great advancements in science, and they didn't have Christianity (we're still using some of their inventions). They designed the tumbler lock, were the first to use the wheel, and a number system based on the number 8 (I think it was 8). The point is, science didn't arise out of religion. How could it have, if science defies most of what religion has to say?

[ENIGMA]

Oh no, the Dark and Middle Ages were certainly Christianity's main times of widespread acceptance and enforcement. Although, I must admit I gave the religion too much credit for the downfall of Rome, overextension does that even to the most civil societies.

Why does the major technological and scientific development come onto the scene only with the rise of secularism and the Enlightenment?

What about Asia? What about America at the time? What about South America? What about Latin America? Where were the great scientific and technological advancements in those parts of the world with the absence of Christianity?

The Chinese had developed Gunpowder and Fireworks while the Christians were still killing each other with swords.

The Arabs had developed Algebra while the average Christian with use for mathematics had to somehow figure out the product of XXIII and CXIV.

The Mayans developed a complex calendar and some knowledge of astronomy, long before Galileo was tried for heresy for following up on following up on his knowledge of the same.

I now must take this opportunity to point out that South America and Latin America are the same thing.

Aside from that, you hadn't even mentioned the "Dark and Middle Ages" until the quote above.

Out of curiousity, which time period, roughly a millenium long in which Christianity dominated Europe, did you think I was referring to?

I would like you to specifically address the part regarding Asia. Belief in God has been a major player in that part of the world - and that remains true to this day.

Oooh, this should get interesting. Does it happen to be any particular God? Last I checked there were plenty of holy wars going on, especially if one considers the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts...

[Lucifer]

Oh yes, and to add, the Japanese samurai didn't need help mounting or dismounting a horse. Their swords were also a lot sharper and better, and their armor, lighter and stronger. Also, they developed special structures in architecture that allowed their pagodas to withstand earthquakes by disipating the force. And today, those pagodas were the same pagodas they were when they were built. We use a similar method today in structures to withstand earthquakes. Some of their buildings were also designed so that artifacts stored in them would be preserved for a very long time. And up to now, they're still in mint condition. And this all happened before the influence of Christianity.

[chrispalasz]

I'll try to go down the line... but it's hard between the two of you and the things you say.

Asia had some sort of science. In fact, they invented our paper money, our fireworks and gun powder and other such things.

Big deal. First of all, science isn't important to our lives. Do you need to know exactly how your body digests food before you eat anything? No. You just eat. We don't need to explore God in order to accept that he exists. Even if science were important to life - these are VERY VERY weak inventions. How long did it take to invent that stuff? And they had gunpowder... that they used for fireworks - and nothing else? That's not advancement.

Greeks didn't have Christianity and they had great advancements in philosophy, sciences and art. Even Olmec (which is a Mesoamerican civilization) had their own system of ducts for agriculture, calendars and such, and they didn't have Christianity.

Philosophy isn't science. And these advancements aren't great. Christianity had agriculture and calendars too.

Mesopotamian civilization also had great advancements in science, and they didn't have Christianity (we're still using some of their inventions). They designed the tumbler lock, were the first to use the wheel, and a number system based on the number 8

The wheel?!? Whoopty doo. People reinvent the wheel every day!!! They only invented the wheel because they got there first. If you let some kid grow up alone on an island he'd invent the wheel.

The point is, science didn't arise out of religion. How could it have, if science defies most of what religion has to say?

Science did arise out of religion. Jesus created everything and everybody, including you. Nothing in science defies anything about what Christianity has to say. It only explores and supports it. What defies Christianity are the lies and the faulty conclusions that people try to draw from science.

The Chinese had developed Gunpowder and Fireworks while the Christians were still killing each other with swords.

The Arabs had developed Algebra while the average Christian with use for mathematics had to somehow figure out the product of XXIII and CXIV.

The Mayans developed a complex calendar and some knowledge of astronomy, long before Galileo was tried for heresy for following up on following up on his knowledge of the same.

I now must take this opportunity to point out that South America and Latin America are the same thing.

I already addressed point #1.

Algebra isn't science. Christians did not develop Roman Numerals. The Romans did.

Israel had their own calendar and knowledge of astronomy. Christians did not try Galileo for heresy - the Catholic Church did. Not everyone that says they're a Christian is one. Only those with the Holy Spirit. It is clear by the actions of some of the leaders of the Catholic Church in the middle ages that there were not many.

Oh don't be so anal. Give me a break. I meant Central America.

When I said "Asia" I was refering to East Asia. I thought you would assume that. I was wrong. You're talking about SouthWestern Asia... the parts that practically had direct contact with Western religions. That does not validate your argument.

Also I didn't realize I made a mistake in this quote. It's supposed to read:

I would like you to specifically address the part regarding Asia. Belief in God has not been a major player in that part of the world - and that remains true to this day.

The fall of the Roman Empire was not a result of Christainity. And it makes sense that the Dark Ages took place during the spreading of Christianity. The world will do anything to try and prevent God's plan from being fulfilled.

I'm done here. You're just being nitpicky now. Maybe when somebody new comes along to post.

[Lucifer]

I'll try to go down the line... but it's hard between the two of you and the things you say.

Asia had some sort of science. In fact, they invented our paper money, our fireworks and gun powder and other such things.

Big deal. First of all, science isn't important to our lives. Do you need to know exactly how your body digests food before you eat anything? No. You just eat. We don't need to explore God in order to accept that he exists. Even if science were important to life - these are VERY VERY weak inventions. How long did it take to invent that stuff? And they had gunpowder... that they used for fireworks - and nothing else? That's not advancement.

Greeks didn't have Christianity and they had great advancements in philosophy, sciences and art. Even Olmec (which is a Mesoamerican civilization) had their own system of ducts for agriculture, calendars and such, and they didn't have Christianity.

Philosophy isn't science. And these advancements aren't great. Christianity had agriculture and calendars too.

Mesopotamian civilization also had great advancements in science, and they didn't have Christianity (we're still using some of their inventions). They designed the tumbler lock, were the first to use the wheel, and a number system based on the number 8

The wheel?!? Whoopty doo. People reinvent the wheel every day!!! They only invented the wheel because they got there first. If you let some kid grow up alone on an island he'd invent the wheel.

The point is, science didn't arise out of religion. How could it have, if science defies most of what religion has to say?

Science did arise out of religion. Jesus created everything and everybody, including you. Nothing in science defies anything about what Christianity has to say. It only explores and supports it. What defies Christianity are the lies and the faulty conclusions that people try to draw from science.

The Chinese had developed Gunpowder and Fireworks while the Christians were still killing each other with swords.

The Arabs had developed Algebra while the average Christian with use for mathematics had to somehow figure out the product of XXIII and CXIV.

The Mayans developed a complex calendar and some knowledge of astronomy, long before Galileo was tried for heresy for following up on following up on his knowledge of the same.

I now must take this opportunity to point out that South America and Latin America are the same thing.

I already addressed point #1.

Algebra isn't science. Christians did not develop Roman Numerals. The Romans did.

Israel had their own calendar and knowledge of astronomy. Christians did not try Galileo for heresy - the Catholic Church did. Not everyone that says they're a Christian is one. Only those with the Holy Spirit. It is clear by the actions of some of the leaders of the Catholic Church in the middle ages that there were not many.

Oh don't be so anal. Give me a break. I meant Central America.

When I said "Asia" I was refering to East Asia. I thought you would assume that. I was wrong. You're talking about SouthWestern Asia... the parts that practically had direct contact with Western religions. That does not validate your argument.

Also I didn't realize I made a mistake in this quote. It's supposed to read:

I would like you to specifically address the part regarding Asia. Belief in God has not been a major player in that part of the world - and that remains true to this day.

The fall of the Roman Empire was not a result of Christainity. And it makes sense that the Dark Ages took place during the spreading of Christianity. The world will do anything to try and prevent God's plan from being fulfilled.

I'm done here. You're just being nitpicky now. Maybe when somebody new comes along to post.

First, you challenge us to find out if Christianity helped science, and now you're saying it means bugger all. If you feel that way about it, then don't post it. You mean fireworks and gun powder mean bugger all, right? If there was a war, who would most likely win? Those with gun powder or those with swords? And you can't tell me that's advancement? Well don't complain if you don't see any nice bright lights in the sky anymore. It took the western civilization even longer to get some of these things. The printing press was actually used by the Chinese (or was it some other non-western civilization?) before it first appeared in Germany. You might mindlessly accept that God exists, but remember, not everyone thinks that way. I require that there is an explanation, or else it doesn't follow suit and makes no sense whatsoever. Don't underestimate the Greeks. Where did the triangle theorems come from? Geometry? Their calculations of celestial bodies are mostly correct. Some even suggested the Earth is round. The only reason you can't see their impact is because Christianity suppressed their ideas. Why do you think all those Greek statues lost their limbs? Christianity declared them heathen and destroyed them. They banned and suppressed their "heathen" ideas. The agriculture and calendars in other civilizations weren't the same as the ones in Christianity. They developed differently, according to environment and climate. As for the wheel, they used it for many different things that we still use it for--ie, the pottery wheel. If you let a kid grow on an island, he might think of using the wheel, but do you know if he'll use it for pottery?
Science doesn't support Christianity. How long is it going to take for people to realize that Evolution and Creationism are mutually exclusive? Evolution does not act on a God, so he must not interfere at all. Sciences says the Earth is spherical, and just about everyone else in religion implied that the Earth is flat. Even the church eventually admitted it. Yes, the Romans invented the roman numerals, but a large majority of them were Christians. They were the ones who spread it around. Algebra is math, but it too works on logic.

[chrispalasz]

Well I won't copy and paste your entire response. That is unnecessary.

First of all, what does the expression "bugger all" mean? I'm not familiar with that one.

Second of all, you asked "who is more likely to win? Those with gun powder of those with swords?"

I think the answer to that is plainly clear in history when the western world invaded China (East Asia) and completely stomped them and dominated them. Even with China's great numbers. Before the invasion of the Western World into China... what spectacular inventions did they have? Nothing that would stop the civilization "infected" with Christianity, it seems.

The Roman Empire had been around long before Christians came about - and so did the Roman alphabet that they invented. Christians were just utilizing a system that already existed in their culture when they converted - in the same way that you would speak the same language if you became a Christian instead of going off to learn some more useful language.

I believe in Creationism because it is the truth of the origin of everything. I believe Evolution is true too... but this ape to man, macro evolution is a web of creatively strung lies and deception.