What did philosophy really do to Christianity?

mickiel · Post by **mickiel** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:58 pm

"One of the most influential professors in the shaping of contemporary theology was Peter Abelard, (1079-1142). He is partly responsible for giving us modern theology. His teachings set the table and prepared the menu for scholastic philosophers like Thomas Aquinas, ( 1225-1274). Even before this Christianity became steeped in the thoughts of Plato and Aristotle.

The shocking historical fact is that many of the Christian church fathers were pagan philosophers and orators prior to their conversions, and the Christian faith soon began to take on a philosophical bent." ( Frank Viola pg.202).

( Much of this thread will draw from Frank Violas " Pagan Christianity", Eusebius" The history of the church", Boggs " The Christian Saga" and Rowdon " Theological education in historical perspective.") And from my own views of course. And I will draw on a few websites and articles, which I will always list the references.

Viola states, on Pg.203, " Within a century and a half after Christianity and Philosophy first came into contact, the ideas and methods of Philosophy had flowed in such mass into Christianity, and filled so large a place in it, as to have made it no less a Philosophy than a religion." Which when I read, was absolutely stunning!

When Philosophy got into the Christian bloodstream, especially Pagan philosophy, the Christian Theological Education system has never recovered from it. The fusion of Pagan and Christian elements, became a " Theology unto itself"; ( The term " Theology" used to describe Pagan beliefs).

mickiel · Post by **mickiel** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:10 pm

And I am truly surprised at the reaction many of the Christians that I know give, when I bring this up. Its as if they don't even know the history of their own religion. Paganism is not wrong within itself, neither is religion, ( I would argue that Paganism is simply a religion), but in this thread I am interested in what happened to Christianity when it mixed with Philosophy and influences like Paganism;

what did it historically do to Christianity; and why many Christians are either unaware of this history, or ignore it?

or fear it!

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:46 am

I'm interested but not really sure of your point. Jesus is the logos and I find Christianity most interesting as philosophy. So what am I meant to afraid of?

mickiel · Post by **mickiel** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:44 pm

Wootah wrote: I'm interested but not really sure of your point. Jesus is the logos and I find Christianity most interesting as philosophy. So what am I meant to afraid of?

Well I am happy you are interested, and I don't think I could have been any clearer in expressing the points I am after in thread; but going on another thing you stated, Christianity is a philosophy, but Jesus did not teach philosophy, and Salvation is not a philosophy, and the bible is not philosophy. But Christianity has put a philosophical slant on all of that. And I am not saying that is a wrong thing to do, I am saying its what has been historically done. Its what happened.

For example, even the term " Christian", is a philosophy, its not a God given or Christ given term; but Christians historically treat it as if it is. The first New Testament believers were originally called followers of " The Way." But the Romans insulted them by calling them " Christians", which to them was a degrading term; but the followers of Christ just eventually " Accepted this insult, and stated calling themselves the insult." Acts 11:26, and this insulting first started in Antioch, that's where it caught on that the Romans were calling them Christians. Jesus NEVER called them that, God NEVER called them that, no Prophet ever called them that, and no Angel has EVER used the term. And no heavenly prophecy reveals that the term Christianity means anything to God or Christ at all.

And yet, the term " Christianity" has taken on a SPIRITUAL meaning, as if it is holy and righteous and symbolic of Christ himself! ALL that IS philosophy! And its a philosophy that has become stronger than the scriptures themselves! Because the bible does not teach that God or Christ labeled their followers or church, " Christianity", it teaches that the term is what the Romans called them.

Where in scripture is it taught that God used the Romans to establish anything of Spiritual significance, that can be supported by many other scriptures? Where in the bible has God used Romans to establish the identity of his people?

The truth in this is what many Christians fear.

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:13 pm

[Replying to post 4 by mickiel]

Fear it? I think it's awesome. Perhaps all those philosophers saw 'the awesome' as well.

If you consider the Bible stories literally happened and that at the same time they contain deep philosophical insights - it's awesome.

Having read many philosophical works but being no academic it is equally clear to me that no philosopher should consider themselves such without having studied the bible.

On the term Christianty: Sometimes it takes someone outside our environment to see things more clearly. Sometimes we dismantle our enemies by wearing their slurs and shaming them.

And fearful. The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God.

mickiel · Post by **mickiel** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:20 pm

After the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in AD 70, Judaic Christianity waned in numbers and power. Gentile Christianity dominated , and the new faith began to absorb Greco-Roman philosophy and ritual. Paganism dominated the Roman Empire until the 4th century and many of its elements were absorbed by Christians in the first half of the first millennium.

From these roots, when these dynamics entered into the bloodstream of Christianity, it has never been the same since.

Ancient of Years · Post by **Ancient of Years** » Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:33 pm

mickiel wrote: After the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in AD 70, Judaic Christianity waned in numbers and power. Gentile Christianity dominated , and the new faith began to absorb Greco-Roman philosophy and ritual. Paganism dominated the Roman Empire until the 4th century and many of its elements were absorbed by Christians in the first half of the first millennium.

From these roots, when these dynamics entered into the bloodstream of Christianity, it has never been the same since.

Those philosophical elements were already present in what was to become Christianity before 70 CE, as evidenced in the letters of Paul, courtesy of the Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria. Philoâ€™s influence can also be seen in the Gospels, written after 70 CE. Nonetheless Philoâ€™s motifs arose from pagan sources, specifically new-Platonism, applied to Jewish scriptures. This makes the Christian themes second-hand pagan, notwithstanding Philoâ€™s contention that the Greeks learned from Moses.

Paul very often refers to Jesus as the Son of God, the firstborn of God or some variation on those, in a sense implying a pre-existing entity. This is straight out of Philo. The Son of God label is continued in all the Gospels.

Matthewâ€™s motif of a virgin birth sounds very much like Philoâ€™s comments in The Cherubim about God inspiring pregnancies and Godâ€™s special relationship with virgins. See XIII and XIV.

The opening of the Gospel of John is a clear reference to Philo, linking the themes of the Logos, light and the Son of God.

Some references:

Philo: http://www.iep.utm.edu/philo/
Neo-Platonism: http://www.iep.utm.edu/neoplato/
Son of God, Logos and light: http://www.iep.utm.edu/philo/#H11
The Cherubim: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book5.html

mickiel · Post by **mickiel** » Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:05 pm

What did philosophy really do to Christianity? Well one thing it did to it was make it, " Loose their first Love." They lost their priorities and their origins got confused; their original focus on certain things they were taught, got distorted by Philosophy.

In Rev. 2:4 Jesus is personally addressing the first stage of something he predicts will happen to HIS own church; " I have something against you, you have left your first love." Interesting here that Jesus is revealing something that he has AGAINST his own church. And his church certainly evolved into Christianity, no doubt about that. And philosophy had something to do with that incredible evolution.

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:44 am

[Replying to post 8 by mickiel]

I have no idea what you mean. What priorities and origins got lost?

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:25 pm

mickiel wrote: ...

what happened to Christianity when it mixed with Philosophy and influences like Paganism;

what did it historically do to Christianity; and why many Christians are either unaware of this history, or ignore it?

or fear it!

For one, it led to the big three denominations, Catholics and Calvinists and Arminians all basing their theologies on the blasphemy of the pagan Greek definition of omniscience

that HE knows everything that can be known from eternity past to eternity future by HIS nature which tells us HE knew those who would end in hell before HE created them but HE created them anyway, a blasphemy against HIS good name of love and to HIS holiness.

Church people ignore this or accept it and don't care about it and the 1% who understand, know the futility of convincing Cain of anything...

Peace, Ted