Scientific Justification for Free Will?

[Divine Insight]

Is there any scientific justification for the notion of Free Will?

Question #1. If you believe their is, can you please state your scientific evidence for the existence of Free Will.

Question #2. If you believe there is no scientific justification for the notion of Free Will, then please explain how we can have any scientific justification for holding anyone responsible for their actions. In fact, wouldn't the very notion of personal responsibility be scientifically unsupportable?

[arian]

The solution to religious indoctrination whether it comes in the form of scientific education or Sunday school is an open mind, skillful critical thinking, and a healthy dose of skepticism regarding any claims made by anyone that can't be verified personally.

As far as free will goes, it doesn't matter much whether it is real or an illusion. Without knowledge of the future making a free will choice is functionally identical to making a predetermined choice. It doesn't change anything for people if free will is true or if it is an illusion. Because the effect of the illusion of free will is the exact same thing as actually having free will. At least as far as can be determined at this point given what we know, and even given the various possibilities we entertain, about the mind.

I kind of agree, only there is no predetermined choice as in my 'train and tracks' example to Peter. There is predetermined infinite possibilities, and we still have the free will to chose.

The difference between The Mind, or God and us created in His image which is a mind within a body is that The Mind can create all possibilities, but for us created our mind can only choose from the already created possibilities.

The difference is; having free will, us man vs. Being free will, our Creator God.

[arian]

The sunflower follows the sun the same way.

The sunflower follows the sun because it was designed that way. How do you know that the choices you make are not simply because you were designed that way too?

But that's just it Peter, if we only had the brain, and everything we do, or could do was pre-programmed in there, then yes, you are correct. Then if my brain tells me to pick up the pencil, I would pick up the pencil, .. period. But as someone already mentioned before, I can say, or think; "I'm going to pick up the pencil", yet not pick it up. And then I can even argue with myself why I didn't pick it up when I need the pencil to write with. My paper is due, and here I am goofing around in my mind contemplating whether or not to pick up the pencil."

Free will, not predetermined free will like the sunflower. Actually that is not even free will but was created to follow the sun.
It does what it was created to do, not get up one morning and decide not to follow the sun. If the sunflower doesn't follow the sun one day, it is because as I said, it is sick or dying, not because of choice.

That's the crux of the problem here. How do you know that any decision you make isn't simply because you were designed to make that decision? You can't possibly know without some kind of external oversight on the entire decision making process. That's why I repeatedly say that true free will is only possible if we have an autonomous spirit or soul that can countermand our choices. Essentially, true free will is the ability to make a choice we wouldn't make on our own.

But we can know that we have true free will, as I explained above. As for your last statement; "Essentially, true free will is the ability to make a choice we wouldn't make on our own" is exactly what I explained with the pencil. So, ...

I guess it comes back around to whether you think you have a soul or not.

We do have a spirit/mind which I believe you really meant!? A soul is the body including the brain, with the mind/spirit residing in it, we are called a living soul. It is an individual with free will.

Our mind/spirit is of God, the Eternal Creator which contains the free will, and the body is what the mind experiences these infinite choices with, .. or choose not to.

"I need some exercise"
"But my neck hurts"
"I need the exercise!"
"But my neck hurts really bad!"

So I can choose from exercising with my neck hurting, or say; "Forget it, my neck hurts too much today to exercise" and not do what I actually need and want to do. So we do have free will, as you so well put it: "true free will is the ability to make a choice we wouldn't make on our own"

[arian]

[Replying to post 394 by FarWanderer]

Free will has nothing to do with that. Detectives don't observe free will. They observe behaviors and make predictions based off of patterns, much like scientists do.

that's funny. Like observing animals correct?

"Now we have Kinte the lioness getting up and walking over to the watering hole. After 4 years of observing Kinte, we believe it will take a drink. What? She fooled us, she didn't drink but instead she is running towards the town. This may be a bank robbery, she just threw us off with the watering hole trick!"

Get real, you are not an animal. Instinct and free will is very different no matter how much you love your no-God theory. We have both instinct and free will, animals don't. This is why lions just eat, sleep, drink, sleep. They don't build space ships and go throughout the galaxy terrorizing other planets. Each animal does what they were created to do, and act accordingly. Humans were created with free will, they can break their pattern any time they choose.

[Peter]

The sunflower follows the sun the same way.

The sunflower follows the sun because it was designed that way. How do you know that the choices you make are not simply because you were designed that way too?

But that's just it Peter, if we only had the brain, and everything we do, or could do was pre-programmed in there, then yes, you are correct. Then if my brain tells me to pick up the pencil, I would pick up the pencil, .. period. But as someone already mentioned before, I can say, or think; "I'm going to pick up the pencil", yet not pick it up. And then I can even argue with myself why I didn't pick it up when I need the pencil to write with. My paper is due, and here I am goofing around in my mind contemplating whether or not to pick up the pencil."

It really doesn't matter how much we consider a choice or how many choices are available or even how many times we change our mind because in the end we do make a choice. Post choice there is no way to prove that given the exact same choice (and I mean exact as in rewind time and do it again) you are capable of making another choice. Did you make the choice you did because you were designed that way or do you really have true free will and can make any choice? In simple terms, can you make a choice you didn't make?

I know I can't. I don't even know every single factor that goes into a choice I make since much of it is subconscious. If you think you can really make a choice you didn't make then show us.

[FarWanderer]

[Replying to post 394 by FarWanderer]

Free will has nothing to do with that. Detectives don't observe free will. They observe behaviors and make predictions based off of patterns, much like scientists do.

that's funny. Like observing animals correct?

"Now we have Kinte the lioness getting up and walking over to the watering hole. After 4 years of observing Kinte, we believe it will take a drink. What? She fooled us, she didn't drink but instead she is running towards the town. This may be a bank robbery, she just threw us off with the watering hole trick!"

Get real, you are not an animal. Instinct and free will is very different no matter how much you love your no-God theory. We have both instinct and free will, animals don't. This is why lions just eat, sleep, drink, sleep. They don't build space ships and go throughout the galaxy terrorizing other planets. Each animal does what they were created to do, and act accordingly. Humans were created with free will, they can break their pattern any time they choose.

If someone habitually lied to you, would you trust them less than someone who didn't? Or would trust everyone the same because "they can break their pattern any time they choose"?

If you do the former (like any sensible person would) you are making a prediction based off of a human's pattern of behavior, "just like you would an animal".

[arian]

The sunflower follows the sun the same way.

The sunflower follows the sun because it was designed that way. How do you know that the choices you make are not simply because you were designed that way too?

But that's just it Peter, if we only had the brain, and everything we do, or could do was pre-programmed in there, then yes, you are correct. Then if my brain tells me to pick up the pencil, I would pick up the pencil, .. period. But as someone already mentioned before, I can say, or think; "I'm going to pick up the pencil", yet not pick it up. And then I can even argue with myself why I didn't pick it up when I need the pencil to write with. My paper is due, and here I am goofing around in my mind contemplating whether or not to pick up the pencil."

It really doesn't matter how much we consider a choice or how many choices are available or even how many times we change our mind because in the end we do make a choice. Post choice there is no way to prove that given the exact same choice (and I mean exact as in rewind time and do it again) you are capable of making another choice. Did you make the choice you did because you were designed that way or do you really have true free will and can make any choice? In simple terms, can you make a choice you didn't make?

I know what you are saying, and I am positive, I am absolutely sure that our mind has free will because it is Infinite.

Lets consider a finite thing like a dice. I know if we were to drop a dice EXACTLY the same way, the same surface, the same height, the same atmospheric temperature, the same everything we'd get the same number on the dice over and over again.

Our mind is free from any outside 'finite', or physical interference in this sense, but we get bombarded with multiple thoughts which would mean our choices will always differ somewhat.

Of course this is greatly reduced when we speak or write or talk depending on our vocabulary. For some people so limited (like children for instance) that we could almost predict what response they will have to certain questions.

But if I consider everything, even with all the distractions or outside influence on my mind, it cannot compare to the rest of my capacity for free will. Our mind IS infinite and no distraction could fill it where we will have tunnel vision, or have us make that one choice every time.

But this doesn't mean we cannot have this repeated action every time, it's like walking through the desert, or the woods, we have all these choices to walk on, but if we see a path or a road, most likely we'll take it every time. This is not free will, but a choice.

I know I can't. I don't even know every single factor that goes into a choice I make since much of it is subconscious. If you think you can really make a choice you didn't make then show us.

OK, ..
Especially considering all the factors that COULD go into our decision to make a choice, I mean on the atomic and even sub atomic level, it is almost certain we will make a choice we didn't make. Free will still will take that easiest path though, which doesn't mean our free will is limited.

Even if you consider the rewind, when you get to that EXACT place you made that last choice, you still have the choice, right? And now you make another choice from your free will which can be anything. It could be the same, somewhat different, or completely different. I mean that's just common sense right?

Our options could be limited, but not our free will. So I guess it would be like;
Free will = Infinite
Options = available choices which is finite, which depending on the situation could be very limited.

Infinite is unlimited, which is our free will. But the finite is whatever is available at the time which could become such a bottleneck that could lead us to only one choice. This doesn't mean our free will is limited to that one available choice, our mind could be thinking of million other choices.

It's like being in prison, the mind (*free will) can never be imprisoned, only our body (*available choices).

So it's not like the dice that we throw EXACTLY the same way, under the exact same conditions and gets the exact same result, .. our mind has true free will and even in the exact same situation (rewind after rewind) can make a different choice every time.

[arian]

[Replying to post 394 by FarWanderer]

Free will has nothing to do with that. Detectives don't observe free will. They observe behaviors and make predictions based off of patterns, much like scientists do.

that's funny. Like observing animals correct?

"Now we have Kinte the lioness getting up and walking over to the watering hole. After 4 years of observing Kinte, we believe it will take a drink. What? She fooled us, she didn't drink but instead she is running towards the town. This may be a bank robbery, she just threw us off with the watering hole trick!"

Get real, you are not an animal. Instinct and free will is very different no matter how much you love your no-God theory. We have both instinct and free will, animals don't. This is why lions just eat, sleep, drink, sleep. They don't build space ships and go throughout the galaxy terrorizing other planets. Each animal does what they were created to do, and act accordingly. Humans were created with free will, they can break their pattern any time they choose.

If someone habitually lied to you, would you trust them less than someone who didn't? Or would trust everyone the same because "they can break their pattern any time they choose"?

If you do the former (like any sensible person would) you are making a prediction based off of a human's pattern of behavior, "just like you would an animal".

I would, and always have done the latter because I know and 'believe' he has free will. And it is EXACTLY because I am sensible. You see, even our understanding what is sensible is very different, maybe because I believe I am a non-animal human created in Gods Image!?!

Only animals judge other animals by instinct, one judging the others behavior. This is how lions hunt, and the lion that remembers behavioral patterns the most gets to make more kills.

I have free will to do either, both to animals and humans, but I choose to watch animals behavior, and humans according to what I know they are capable of, which is the ability to exercise their free will. It seems to bring the better out of people.

This is why it is difficult to debate here, most believe they are animals, and tend to treat others as such. Some actually hate to see human emotions from their fellow debaters and want to remove them from the forum. They say emotions, especially human emotions have no place in debate, yet their debates scream with emotions even if they try to hide it. LOL.

A smile is a powerful weapon, unfortunately it can be used in deceiving ways too. Ever wonder why animals can't smile? Because they have no free will.

And because I treat a humans as humans, I survived many deadly encounters even under the worst circumstances. The other way is also true, if you treat humans like animals, they will react like an animal. We humans can do that because we have free will.

I also know from experience that I can influence other humans just by my faith IN THEM. Another words, when I had a drug crazed man pointing a gun at my head telling me he is going to blow my head off, my faith in that he won't do it, influenced him not to. This happened many times in my life under very different situations and places, so it's not something I am guessing at or assuming.

It's sad to see how many young children are made to believe they are animals, thank God they can still use their free will to fight it, but they are breaking down thanks to Evolutionist. Soon, all the children will be brainwashed to believe they are nothing but evolving animals, and will act by instinct like animals, .. like every sensible person, right?

[Divine Insight]

Lets consider a finite thing like a dice. I know if we were to drop a dice EXACTLY the same way, the same surface, the same height, the same atmospheric temperature, the same everything we'd get the same number on the dice over and over again.

Actually this is wrong Arian. You are thinking in terms of classical or Newtonian physics. You're back in the days of Spinoza. Our modern picture of reality does not allow for that kind of precise determinism. Dice will not necessarily some up with the same number over and over again in our universe.

Therefore, according to you even dice must have FREE WILL.

But of course, that would be wrong. They simply may do things differently if given a second chance under the very same conditions. But that would hardly be free will. All it would be is randomness.

Also, you don't seem to realized that you are no different from the dice. Everything you do, say, and think now have been strongly influenced by your past.

In fact that's very easy to prove. If there were no such thing as Christianity you would have never heard of it and you wouldn't be arguing for it like you do. Therefore your very own past including all the knowledge you have is really nothing more than the history of the "roll" of the dice of your mind.


The problem is Arian is that you really can't take credit for what you have become, be it good or bad. It's not only that you can't be blamed for what you might have done that was bad, but you can't be given credit for what you might have done that is good either.

If you're good consider yourself to be lucky. If your bad consider yourself to be very unlucky. Because in the end you are nothing more than a roll of the cosmic dice.

In fact, if you are a Christian you absolutely must believe this. Because according to Christianity you can't be good on your own. There is no way that you can be good or take credit for being good or claim that you are responsible in any way for your goodness. That's actually a big no-no in Christianity.

You are nothing but a pair of cosmic dice being blown about in the wind and the only way you can be saved from your windy fate is to accept Jesus as your savior. And even if you do that it won't really have been your free will choice. I can't be. Because if it was then you would be responsible for having saved yourself. And again that's a big no-no. You can't be responsible for having saved yourself in Christianity. Only Jesus can save you.

So ultimately it can't even be your choice at all.

So in Christianity not only is there no free will, but even if there was such a thing as free will it would be absolutely taboo for you to exercise it, even in terms of accepting Jesus as your savior. Because if you could actually be responsible for having made that choice, then you would have saved yourself, and Jesus wouldn't have anything at all to do with your salvation. Your salvation would have been the result entirely of your own free will choice. No Jesus required.

[Peter]

The sunflower follows the sun the same way.

The sunflower follows the sun because it was designed that way. How do you know that the choices you make are not simply because you were designed that way too?

But that's just it Peter, if we only had the brain, and everything we do, or could do was pre-programmed in there, then yes, you are correct. Then if my brain tells me to pick up the pencil, I would pick up the pencil, .. period. But as someone already mentioned before, I can say, or think; "I'm going to pick up the pencil", yet not pick it up. And then I can even argue with myself why I didn't pick it up when I need the pencil to write with. My paper is due, and here I am goofing around in my mind contemplating whether or not to pick up the pencil."

It really doesn't matter how much we consider a choice or how many choices are available or even how many times we change our mind because in the end we do make a choice. Post choice there is no way to prove that given the exact same choice (and I mean exact as in rewind time and do it again) you are capable of making another choice. Did you make the choice you did because you were designed that way or do you really have true free will and can make any choice? In simple terms, can you make a choice you didn't make?

I know what you are saying, and I am positive, I am absolutely sure that our mind has free will because it is Infinite.

Our minds are infinite? I don't know what that means and even if our minds were "infinite" I'm not sure how true free will is linked to an infinite mind.

Lets consider a finite thing like a dice. I know if we were to drop a dice EXACTLY the same way, the same surface, the same height, the same atmospheric temperature, the same everything we'd get the same number on the dice over and over again.

That's my point. Given the exact same "drop" our minds would make the same choice every time.

I know I can't. I don't even know every single factor that goes into a choice I make since much of it is subconscious. If you think you can really make a choice you didn't make then show us.

OK, ..
Especially considering all the factors that COULD go into our decision to make a choice, I mean on the atomic and even sub atomic level, it is almost certain we will make a choice we didn't make. Free will still will take that easiest path though, which doesn't mean our free will is limited.

Even if you consider the rewind, when you get to that EXACT place you made that last choice, you still have the choice, right? And now you make another choice from your free will which can be anything. It could be the same, somewhat different, or completely different. I mean that's just common sense right?

Common sense is overrated. Uncommon sense is sometimes required.

So we rewind everything perfectly, hit play and get to the place where you make the choice again. Technically you still have different options (choices) but if every switch in your brain opens or closes exactly as it did the first time (perfect rewind) you will make the same choice, you must. To be able to make another choice would require an independent decision maker(soul) that can override the switches in your brain.

This seems like a slam dunk in favor of determinism and against free will.

So it's not like the dice that we throw EXACTLY the same way, under the exact same conditions and gets the exact same result, .. our mind has true free will and even in the exact same situation (rewind after rewind) can make a different choice every time.

You continue to say that the mind has true free will without any logic to support that assertion.

[FarWanderer]

[Replying to post 394 by FarWanderer]

Free will has nothing to do with that. Detectives don't observe free will. They observe behaviors and make predictions based off of patterns, much like scientists do.

that's funny. Like observing animals correct?

"Now we have Kinte the lioness getting up and walking over to the watering hole. After 4 years of observing Kinte, we believe it will take a drink. What? She fooled us, she didn't drink but instead she is running towards the town. This may be a bank robbery, she just threw us off with the watering hole trick!"

Get real, you are not an animal. Instinct and free will is very different no matter how much you love your no-God theory. We have both instinct and free will, animals don't. This is why lions just eat, sleep, drink, sleep. They don't build space ships and go throughout the galaxy terrorizing other planets. Each animal does what they were created to do, and act accordingly. Humans were created with free will, they can break their pattern any time they choose.

If someone habitually lied to you, would you trust them less than someone who didn't? Or would trust everyone the same because "they can break their pattern any time they choose"?

If you do the former (like any sensible person would) you are making a prediction based off of a human's pattern of behavior, "just like you would an animal".

I would, and always have done the latter because I know and 'believe' he has free will. And it is EXACTLY because I am sensible. You see, even our understanding what is sensible is very different, maybe because I believe I am a non-animal human created in Gods Image!?!

To be frank, I do not believe you.

You do not take past actions of people into account to judge their future actions? How then do you even tell one personality from another?

Only animals judge other animals by instinct, one judging the others behavior. This is how lions hunt, and the lion that remembers behavioral patterns the most gets to make more kills.

I have free will to do either, both to animals and humans, but I choose to watch animals behavior, and humans according to what I know they are capable of, which is the ability to exercise their free will. It seems to bring the better out of people.

OK, I think I understand what you are getting at here, and in fact I agree with this in a sense (remember, I do not deny free will, I only deny that it can be justified scientifically).

Free will and determinism are simply lenses through which we view the world. People switch back and forth between them all the time, whether they consciously ackowledge it or not.

They are not something to be proven. Nor do they need to be. In fact, the idea of proving them doesn't even make sense. This is because they are what makes understanding the world possible in the first place. You don't "prove" those kinds of things, you use them to prove other things.

The problem is that both foundations fill some need we, as humans, have, but they are incompatable with one another. And so philosophical angst ensues.

This is why it is difficult to debate here, most believe they are animals, and tend to treat others as such. Some actually hate to see human emotions from their fellow debaters and want to remove them from the forum. They say emotions, especially human emotions have no place in debate, yet their debates scream with emotions even if they try to hide it. LOL.

I do not disagree, but I think it's better that people do hold back at least to a degree. You ever try following debates in YouTube comments?

A smile is a powerful weapon, unfortunately it can be used in deceiving ways too.

I agree.

Ever wonder why animals can't smile? Because they have no free will.

Most mammals are definitely capable of expressing emotions, and certain animals, like chimpanzees, make facial expressions very much like human smiles.

I really don't see any foundation for the claim that "humans have free will but animals don't". It seems like that's just the way you like to see things, and nothing more.

In fact, I'm not really sure what the difference is between what you call instinct and what you call free will.

And because I treat a humans as humans, I survived many deadly encounters even under the worst circumstances. The other way is also true, if you treat humans like animals, they will react like an animal. We humans can do that because we have free will.

I also know from experience that I can influence other humans just by my faith IN THEM. Another words, when I had a drug crazed man pointing a gun at my head telling me he is going to blow my head off, my faith in that he won't do it, influenced him not to. This happened many times in my life under very different situations and places, so it's not something I am guessing at or assuming.

I do not deny the power of faith. Many atheists scoff at faith. I do not.

However, just this idea of you "steering" other people by faith is still itself a form of treating them as an object to be shaped, rather than an entity that guides him or herself.

It's sad to see how many young children are made to believe they are animals, thank God they can still use their free will to fight it, but they are breaking down thanks to Evolutionist. Soon, all the children will be brainwashed to believe they are nothing but evolving animals, and will act by instinct like animals, .. like every sensible person, right?

I agree that science "worship" is growing, and that it is not a good thing. There's no meaning or value to be found in science. It's only a tool.

But it's a darned good tool.