I have some concerns about the fairness of Original Sin and would be interested other forum members opinion on this issue.
One of my concerns deals with the account as presented in Genesis. God tells Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil otherwise he will die. Later of course, Adam and Eve are seduced by that rascally serpent, God banishes them from Eden, and death is brought into the world, etc. The problem I have with this is that by definition, not having yet partaken of the famous apple, Adam and Eve have no concept of good and evil and indeed the threat of death is meaningless to them since they also would have no understanding of what death is! Adam and Eve are innocents who have no moral compass with which to make the decision. Its like telling a toddler who has never been disciplined not to eat the really neat looking poisoned candy and then walking away and seeing what happens.
Another thing that bugs me is the implied concept of inheritability of sin, i.e. Adam and Eve sin so everyone else to the umpteenth generation is equally culpable and has a one-way ticket punched to the Really Hot Place. Where is the personal responsibility in that? Indeed, where is free will if the punishment is already in place without a decision having been made? I would think that God at least would want to punish you for the sins that YOU have committed.
Thank you for your time.
Is the concept of Original Sin fair?
Moderator: Moderators
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Easyrider
Post #2
Unless man has free will to sin or not to sin, he is simply a pre-programmed robot. Consider the following:
MAN CREATED IN THE LIKENESS AND IMAGE OF GOD
"Then God said, 'Let us make man in our own image, in our likeness....'" (Genesis 1:26). Thereafter, Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The critical question here is: Is the knowledge of good and evil a prerequisite for coming into the likeness and image of God? Genesis 3:22 seems to answer this in the affirmative - "And the Lord God said, 'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil." At the other end of the Bible we see this curious verse - "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God" (Revelation 2:7). What is it that one must overcome to eat of the tree of eternal life (note that Christ is symbolized as the 'Tree of Life' - "For there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved" - Acts 4:12. It is well documented throughout the New Testament that Jesus is the only way into heaven, the paradise of God)? From my research, sin, evil, and the (carnal) world are the things that God commands us to overcome. "Sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it" (Genesis 4:7). "For everyone born of God overcomes the world" (1 John 5:4). "Who overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God" (1 John 5:5). In the garden of Eden, Adam and Eve are not allowed to eat of the tree of life and gain eternal life (Genesis 3:22). In the book of Revelation, once man has overcome evil, he is then allowed to eat of that same tree and enter into eternal life.
But is there another way for man to overcome evil and come into God's likeness and image other than having to get "down and dirty" in the midst of it? In the book of Romans there are three sources of 'light' (the revelation of God to man). In Romans chapter one (1:20) it says that God reveals to man His divine nature by what has been made - the heavens and the earth (also note Psalm 19:1-6 and Psalm 97:6). But while the evidence for God is clearly known to man in this way, it does not necessarily or specifically provide a mechanism for overcoming evil. Man knew who God was before and after the fall, yet God would still not allow him to eat of the tree of life. Man had to go another route.
In Romans chapter two (2:15) it says that man's conscience bears witness to him of doing right or wrong. This seems like a more viable option in dealing with evil. Yet if this was the way God wanted man to come into His own likeness and image, why was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world? It would have just been an exercise in futility. It is not enough to just know that something is wrong - man also needed to know why it was wrong and what the consequences of his actions would be. Knowing the personal consequences of sin seems to indicate a much further walk down the road of evil than does the work of conscience alone. In addition, man would need to know what evil is in order to be able to make a comparison to what good is. You must know what sound is before you have an objective sense of what silence is. God created evil (Isaiah 45:7 - KJV). Again, creation denotes purpose. What was the purpose of evil? For one thing, if there is a law of sowing and reaping, there has to be good and evil to provide 'rewards' for both activities. Secondly, for man to have true free will, he must also be allowed to delve into the ugly morass of iniquity as an alternative to following God. If there was only goodness, God would seem to be the only option. And finally, for man to reign eternally with God, he should have a clear and in-depth knowledge of the consequences of sin and evil, and be able to overcome it. But the crux of the matter is that man's (Adam's) conscience was not a formidable enough deterrent to ward off falling into sin. And this was before carnality entered into man. So conscience therefore has to be eliminated as the primary factor in dealing with evil.
The third source of light is in Romans chapter three, the revelation of righteousness by faith in Jesus Christ, the true "light." Christ is the manifestation of grace and mercy, two of God's most endearing attributes. Christ is the vehicle by which man overcomes evil and the world. If man overcomes evil by his own actions and conscience, then he might have something to boast about. But if by God Himself, then God plays the major role in the redemptive plan of mankind. It all seems to point towards the fall and Jesus Christ the Redeemer as the only logical alternative to overcoming evil. God ordained that man should come into His own likeness and image - knowing both good and evil - and then provided the means of overcoming evil and gaining eternal life.
SATAN, THE SMOKING GUN
"For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone;
but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged
away and enticed." (James 1:13-14)
Satan is the tempter. The above verse seems to indicate that no individual is willfully tempted by God. Consider now Matthew 4:1 - "Then Jesus was led by the (Holy) Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil." Taken in conjunction with each other, this appears at first glance to be a clear cut case of a Biblical contradiction. God does not tempt, but it is clear His purpose was for Jesus to be tempted, and He, as the Holy Spirit, even led Jesus to that end. There are two ways of answering this dilemma without chucking our Bibles into the trash. The first would be to make the assumption that Matthew 4:1 indicates that no natural man is tempted by God. Jesus would therefore not fall into this category because He is also fully God. The second explanation, and the one I prefer, is that God does not tempt anyone, He allows Satan to do it - He allows Satan to engage in this activity, subject, of course, to God's permissible will.
With this in mind, we go back to the garden of Eden and who do we find? That ancient serpent, Satan. What is he doing there? Was Adam not evicted from the garden because of his fall into sin? Why wasn't Satan? If the garden is a sanctified and holy area, one would think that God would have the sovereign power and desire to keep it that way. Unless, of course, there was a divine purpose involved for Satan to be there. And what would that purpose be? To tempt Adam into the fall so that man would come into the knowledge of good and evil, overcome it through the power Of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, and be raised complete in the image and likeness of God. Man cannot be an overcomer until he has something to overcome, like sin and Satan. In my mind, Satan is the "smoking gun" who serves the greater purpose of God.
One other observation. Whereas Genesis 1:26 states that God was to create man in His own image and likeness, Genesis 1:27 shows that man was only created in God's "image." It wasn't until Genesis 3:22 when Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that he became "like" God.
To Summarize:
1. Man was to be created in the likeness and image of God (Genesis 1:26).
2. Part of this "likeness" was a knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22)
3. For Adam to be truly "like" God, he had to acquire a knowledge of evil.
4. The means to that end was eating of the tree of the knowledge of good
and evil.
5. To do that a "tempter" was likely needed to entice Adam into sin.
6. God provided, or allowed, Satan as the tempter.
7. God knew in advance what the outcome would be, but allowed it anyway.
8. God knew atonement would be required, and provided Jesus Christ as the
"Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth" (Revelation 13:8).
9. Man achieves the likeness of God, acquires a knowledge of and overcomes evil, partakes of Christ (the "tree of life"), and is reunited in paradise with God. Man, like God, is now an overcomer.
The key to all this remains, "Is acquiring a knowledge of good and evil a prerequisite to coming into the likeness and image of God? If the answer is yes, I think Adam has to eat from that tree, and God has to make it happen. If the answer is no, then I think you have to look back to Genesis 3:22 and reconcile that with Genesis 1:26, explaining how Adam is "like" God, but at the same time lacks a knowledge of good and evil.
MAN CREATED IN THE LIKENESS AND IMAGE OF GOD
"Then God said, 'Let us make man in our own image, in our likeness....'" (Genesis 1:26). Thereafter, Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The critical question here is: Is the knowledge of good and evil a prerequisite for coming into the likeness and image of God? Genesis 3:22 seems to answer this in the affirmative - "And the Lord God said, 'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil." At the other end of the Bible we see this curious verse - "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God" (Revelation 2:7). What is it that one must overcome to eat of the tree of eternal life (note that Christ is symbolized as the 'Tree of Life' - "For there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved" - Acts 4:12. It is well documented throughout the New Testament that Jesus is the only way into heaven, the paradise of God)? From my research, sin, evil, and the (carnal) world are the things that God commands us to overcome. "Sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it" (Genesis 4:7). "For everyone born of God overcomes the world" (1 John 5:4). "Who overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God" (1 John 5:5). In the garden of Eden, Adam and Eve are not allowed to eat of the tree of life and gain eternal life (Genesis 3:22). In the book of Revelation, once man has overcome evil, he is then allowed to eat of that same tree and enter into eternal life.
But is there another way for man to overcome evil and come into God's likeness and image other than having to get "down and dirty" in the midst of it? In the book of Romans there are three sources of 'light' (the revelation of God to man). In Romans chapter one (1:20) it says that God reveals to man His divine nature by what has been made - the heavens and the earth (also note Psalm 19:1-6 and Psalm 97:6). But while the evidence for God is clearly known to man in this way, it does not necessarily or specifically provide a mechanism for overcoming evil. Man knew who God was before and after the fall, yet God would still not allow him to eat of the tree of life. Man had to go another route.
In Romans chapter two (2:15) it says that man's conscience bears witness to him of doing right or wrong. This seems like a more viable option in dealing with evil. Yet if this was the way God wanted man to come into His own likeness and image, why was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world? It would have just been an exercise in futility. It is not enough to just know that something is wrong - man also needed to know why it was wrong and what the consequences of his actions would be. Knowing the personal consequences of sin seems to indicate a much further walk down the road of evil than does the work of conscience alone. In addition, man would need to know what evil is in order to be able to make a comparison to what good is. You must know what sound is before you have an objective sense of what silence is. God created evil (Isaiah 45:7 - KJV). Again, creation denotes purpose. What was the purpose of evil? For one thing, if there is a law of sowing and reaping, there has to be good and evil to provide 'rewards' for both activities. Secondly, for man to have true free will, he must also be allowed to delve into the ugly morass of iniquity as an alternative to following God. If there was only goodness, God would seem to be the only option. And finally, for man to reign eternally with God, he should have a clear and in-depth knowledge of the consequences of sin and evil, and be able to overcome it. But the crux of the matter is that man's (Adam's) conscience was not a formidable enough deterrent to ward off falling into sin. And this was before carnality entered into man. So conscience therefore has to be eliminated as the primary factor in dealing with evil.
The third source of light is in Romans chapter three, the revelation of righteousness by faith in Jesus Christ, the true "light." Christ is the manifestation of grace and mercy, two of God's most endearing attributes. Christ is the vehicle by which man overcomes evil and the world. If man overcomes evil by his own actions and conscience, then he might have something to boast about. But if by God Himself, then God plays the major role in the redemptive plan of mankind. It all seems to point towards the fall and Jesus Christ the Redeemer as the only logical alternative to overcoming evil. God ordained that man should come into His own likeness and image - knowing both good and evil - and then provided the means of overcoming evil and gaining eternal life.
SATAN, THE SMOKING GUN
"For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone;
but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged
away and enticed." (James 1:13-14)
Satan is the tempter. The above verse seems to indicate that no individual is willfully tempted by God. Consider now Matthew 4:1 - "Then Jesus was led by the (Holy) Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil." Taken in conjunction with each other, this appears at first glance to be a clear cut case of a Biblical contradiction. God does not tempt, but it is clear His purpose was for Jesus to be tempted, and He, as the Holy Spirit, even led Jesus to that end. There are two ways of answering this dilemma without chucking our Bibles into the trash. The first would be to make the assumption that Matthew 4:1 indicates that no natural man is tempted by God. Jesus would therefore not fall into this category because He is also fully God. The second explanation, and the one I prefer, is that God does not tempt anyone, He allows Satan to do it - He allows Satan to engage in this activity, subject, of course, to God's permissible will.
With this in mind, we go back to the garden of Eden and who do we find? That ancient serpent, Satan. What is he doing there? Was Adam not evicted from the garden because of his fall into sin? Why wasn't Satan? If the garden is a sanctified and holy area, one would think that God would have the sovereign power and desire to keep it that way. Unless, of course, there was a divine purpose involved for Satan to be there. And what would that purpose be? To tempt Adam into the fall so that man would come into the knowledge of good and evil, overcome it through the power Of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, and be raised complete in the image and likeness of God. Man cannot be an overcomer until he has something to overcome, like sin and Satan. In my mind, Satan is the "smoking gun" who serves the greater purpose of God.
One other observation. Whereas Genesis 1:26 states that God was to create man in His own image and likeness, Genesis 1:27 shows that man was only created in God's "image." It wasn't until Genesis 3:22 when Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that he became "like" God.
To Summarize:
1. Man was to be created in the likeness and image of God (Genesis 1:26).
2. Part of this "likeness" was a knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22)
3. For Adam to be truly "like" God, he had to acquire a knowledge of evil.
4. The means to that end was eating of the tree of the knowledge of good
and evil.
5. To do that a "tempter" was likely needed to entice Adam into sin.
6. God provided, or allowed, Satan as the tempter.
7. God knew in advance what the outcome would be, but allowed it anyway.
8. God knew atonement would be required, and provided Jesus Christ as the
"Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth" (Revelation 13:8).
9. Man achieves the likeness of God, acquires a knowledge of and overcomes evil, partakes of Christ (the "tree of life"), and is reunited in paradise with God. Man, like God, is now an overcomer.
The key to all this remains, "Is acquiring a knowledge of good and evil a prerequisite to coming into the likeness and image of God? If the answer is yes, I think Adam has to eat from that tree, and God has to make it happen. If the answer is no, then I think you have to look back to Genesis 3:22 and reconcile that with Genesis 1:26, explaining how Adam is "like" God, but at the same time lacks a knowledge of good and evil.
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juliod
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Post #3
But your lengthy text didn't answer the question did it? We don't have free-will to not sin. Adam and Eve did it for us and we will be punished through all eternity for it, regardless of what life we lead.Unless man has free will to sin or not to sin, he is simply a pre-programmed robot. Consider the following:
Your christology is the height of weird. God creates humans in a flawed state knowing that they will disobey. To overcome this he sacrifices himself to himself to appease himself for a mistake he made himself with full pre-knowledge. I mean, what?
DanZ
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Easyrider
Post #4
You must have glossed over my response, or did the "Lamb (Christ) slain from the foundation of the world - Genesis 13:8 - escape your attention?juliod wrote:
But your lengthy text didn't answer the question did it? We don't have free-will to not sin. Adam and Eve did it for us and we will be punished through all eternity for it, regardless of what life we lead.
Where's the mistake? If it wasn't "fair" that you are born into sin then it isn't "fair" (by your own works and devices) to obtain the "Get out of Jail free card" (Christ's salvation) either.juliod wrote:Your christology is the height of weird. God creates humans in a flawed state knowing that they will disobey. To overcome this he sacrifices himself to himself to appease himself for a mistake he made himself with full pre-knowledge. I mean, what?
DanZ
How does Juliod create man with free will and not have man commit sin or evil if he chooses? How does Juliod accomplish that (need specifics) without creating a pre-programmed robot of sorts?
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Metatron
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Post #5
If God wants man to be "like God" by knowing the difference between good and evil why go through this charade of sending a couple of innocents to take the fall with no moral compass to guide their use of free will.Easyrider wrote:
1. Man was to be created in the likeness and image of God (Genesis 1:26).
2. Part of this "likeness" was a knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22)
3. For Adam to be truly "like" God, he had to acquire a knowledge of evil.
4. The means to that end was eating of the tree of the knowledge of good
and evil.
5. To do that a "tempter" was likely needed to entice Adam into sin.
6. God provided, or allowed, Satan as the tempter.
7. God knew in advance what the outcome would be, but allowed it anyway.
8. God knew atonement would be required, and provided Jesus Christ as the
"Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth" (Revelation 13:8).
9. Man achieves the likeness of God, acquires a knowledge of and overcomes evil, partakes of Christ (the "tree of life"), and is reunited in paradise with God. Man, like God, is now an overcomer.
The key to all this remains, "Is acquiring a knowledge of good and evil a prerequisite to coming into the likeness and image of God? If the answer is yes, I think Adam has to eat from that tree, and God has to make it happen. If the answer is no, then I think you have to look back to Genesis 3:22 and reconcile that with Genesis 1:26, explaining how Adam is "like" God, but at the same time lacks a knowledge of good and evil.
And while we're at it, what's so great about having evil in the world in the first place. I can use my free will without the necessity of evil. Do I want to eat pizza or hamburger tonight? Should I homeschool my kids or send them to public school? These are uses of my free will and presumably do not involve evil vs. good. (Unless you happen to think pizza and public schools are evil.
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Easyrider
Post #6
Seems to me it has worked out quite well, considering billions of people have some sort of moral compass, and about a billion have a Biblically-based moral compass to some degree.Metatron wrote: If God wants man to be "like God" by knowing the difference between good and evil why go through this charade of sending a couple of innocents to take the fall with no moral compass to guide their use of free will.
The point isn't that evil is a "great" thing to have, it's that man has free will to do / choose good or evil. Sounds like in your scenario man is a mind-numbed robot who isn't allowed to think or act for himself.Metatron wrote:And while we're at it, what's so great about having evil in the world in the first place. I can use my free will without the necessity of evil. Do I want to eat pizza or hamburger tonight? Should I homeschool my kids or send them to public school? These are uses of my free will and presumably do not involve evil vs. good. (Unless you happen to think pizza and public schools are evil.
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Metatron
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Post #7
Is choosing hamburger over pizza the act of a mind-numbed robot? Was my decision to marry my wife a choice between good and evil? Can I only demonstrate my free will by choosing whether or not to shoot someone?Easyrider wrote:Seems to me it has worked out quite well, considering billions of people have some sort of moral compass, and about a billion have a Biblically-based moral compass to some degree.Metatron wrote: If God wants man to be "like God" by knowing the difference between good and evil why go through this charade of sending a couple of innocents to take the fall with no moral compass to guide their use of free will.
You haven't addressed the substance of what I was saying above, namely why does God need to trick a couple of innocents into sinning and thereby condemning them and all of the rest of mankind to death just to give them a moral compass.
The point isn't that evil is a "great" thing to have, it's that man has free will to do / choose good or evil. Sounds like in your scenario man is a mind-numbed robot who isn't allowed to think or act for himself.Metatron wrote:And while we're at it, what's so great about having evil in the world in the first place. I can use my free will without the necessity of evil. Do I want to eat pizza or hamburger tonight? Should I homeschool my kids or send them to public school? These are uses of my free will and presumably do not involve evil vs. good. (Unless you happen to think pizza and public schools are evil.
You have not shown to my satisfaction at any rate why God needs to allow evil in the world just to give us free will.
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Easyrider
Post #8
How about you play God for a moment and spell out for me how you would create man with free will, while at the same time not allowing him the choice to sin or do evil if he wants?Metatron wrote:Can I only demonstrate my free will by choosing whether or not to shoot someone?
You have not shown to my satisfaction at any rate why God needs to allow evil in the world just to give us free will.
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Metatron
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Post #9
Simple. I remove evil actions from the still enormous list of actions that I have to choose from to express my free will. Evil joins the huge list of other choices I don't have like the choice to teleport to Paris or make myself 20 years old again. I will have to make do with mundane expressions of free will like deciding who I'm going to marry, where I will live, how many children will I have and how will I educate them. I'm willing to live with that constraint on my free will in order to have a world without murder, rape, theft, etc. A pretty good trade off in my opinion.Easyrider wrote:How about you play God for a moment and spell out for me how you would create man with free will, while at the same time not allowing him the choice to sin or do evil if he wants?Metatron wrote:Can I only demonstrate my free will by choosing whether or not to shoot someone?
You have not shown to my satisfaction at any rate why God needs to allow evil in the world just to give us free will.
