THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE LI'BLE TO READ IN THE BIBLE

[KCKID]

Why are SO many Christians hung up on homosexuality? While the average Christian would be hard pressed to locate such a text in their Bibles if asked, they would undoubtedly say “Because it’s a sin according to the Bible.� I personally find such a response difficult to accept and rather strongly suspect that one’s ‘religious belief’ on this issue is NOT the driving force behind their aversion/condemnation of homosexuality. I mean, if Christians REALLY desire to condemn ‘sin’ as they perceive it they could give homosexuals a break and instead have a field day targeting the many other human behaviors going on within society that God appears to hate. But …they don’t . . .well certainly not with the same zeal they do toward homosexuality.

So, what is going on here? Does the Bible really condemn sexual relations between consenting adults of the same gender? Or, does the Bible not address the matter of homosexuality at all …or, at least, not as we today recognize homosexuality? Would the Bible authors have even been aware of one’s innate sexuality as well as the complexities surrounding sexuality in general? Or, in simple terms, would they, as with many males of today, have regarded some males as 'effeminate' (or ‘sissies’) based on both ignorance and their own perceived cultural image of the ‘alpha male’? Or, if these authors were considered to be writing by divine authority, might we then say that God is the instigator of such ignorance and has allowed this ignorance to persist from generation to generation?

My main question in this thread is: of the ‘thimble-full’ of scriptures that are commonly used by Christians to condemn homosexuality (sexual attraction/desire directed toward a person or persons of one's own sex), how many of these texts might be considered to be far too ambiguous (open to several possible meanings or interpretations) to have caused such a furor within Christendom in general and specifically resulted in the division of a number of present-day Christian denominations? Can these few scriptures be analyzed so accurately that they can be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt to condemn homosexuality as we refer to the term today? I say no …they cannot. I’ve given my reasons in the past and will do so again if challenged.

Please discuss the below scriptures, as best you can, exegetically, i.e.
observation: what do the passages say?
interpretation: what do the passages mean?
correlation: how do the passages relate to the topic of homosexuality as we define it today?
application: how should these passages affect your/my life?

Note: I've purposely used the NIV for the following texts.

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." (NIV)

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (NIV).

Romans 1:26-27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." (NIV)

1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for[a] Jesus Christ:
2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.
3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.
4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire . . .etc. (NIV)

Should there be other related Bible texts to the topic feel free to present them based on the above criteria for analysis. I purposely omitted the Sodom and Gomorrah saga since it's been done to death and quite clearly has nothing to do with homosexuality per se. However, likewise feel free to present that strange tale for discussion should you find it to be relevant.

[Danmark]

Are you even a Christian? It would hardly be appropriate for a non or anti Christian to define what is and what isn't unChristian.

This is purely personal question, followed by an unsupported claim.
It is a common claim among those who say they speak for Christianity.
And it represents an error in logic.

No one has ever even attempted to meet this challenge: Present a passage of scripture that you think only a Christian can understand; then let's see if I can explain what it means. Of course one of the problems with this is 'who's going to judge?' This problem is presented in the next paragraph:

The second problem with your false and indefensible claim is that YOU claim to be an authority on what Christianity is. You make this claim continually, despite the fact you know that many others who, like you, claim to be Christians and yet they disagree with you. Despite your disagreement with them, can you at least agree that there are many different and conflicting claims about the details of what represents Christianity and that they are all made by those who claim to be Christian?

The truth is, that there is not one person on the entire planet who has been granted the absolute authority to define what a Christian is. Even the Pope, only has authority to declare what the standard is for his fellow Roman Catholics.

[Danmark]

Since you are in disagreement with other Christians, I suggest you take Your Inquisition to Theology Doctrine & Dogma. It's out of place here in Christian Apologetics.

99%:

That's fascinating. I believe you are a Moderator right? And you don't know the meaning of apologetics? Not one apologia from a pro gay proponent can be supported by one word from anyone or anywhere in the New Testament. So I am not going to be frightened by your demands.

Apologia:

ap·o·lo·gi·a (ăp′ə-l�′jē-ə, -jə)
n.
A formal defense or justification.

The definition you quote is irrelevant, because you failed to define the appropriate term, which is not "apologetics," but "Christian apologetics:"

Christian apologetics (Greek: ἀπολογία, "verbal defence, speech in defence")[1] is a field of Christian theology which aims to present a rational basis for the Christian faith, defending the faith against objections.

The reason your argument is in the wrong forum is because you are NOT defending the Christian faith against a claim there is no rational basis for the Christian faith. You are defending one particular Christian doctrine as opposed to Christianity itself. Many Christians disagree with you and what appears to be your sole agenda, attacking homosexuality and homosexuals. Your arguments are refuted by other Christians, yet you continue with your failed cause and make the boastful claim that if someone disagrees with you on this point of Christian doctrine, then they are not Christians. That is why I suggest your battle is with those other Christians, not with those that don't believe the Bible is authority in the first place.

Do you deny that there are millions of people who claim to be Christians, but disagree with you on the issue of homosexuality?

[99percentatheism]

Princess Luna On The Moon

I don't think you know what you're talking about for a number of reasons. I'll go over them now.

Odd, you prove right away I do know what I'm talking about.

That is an opinion of a certain segment of society. And it is a rather new invention for certain reasons.

Why do you think homosexuality is a choice?

Because I am a human being and not a lower animal.

Did you choose to be straight?

I can't remember. If I was raised and encouraged to believe that same gender sex acts were absolutely "equal" and as natural as normal sex I suppose I would have choices brought to me by that environment. The whole gay agenda thing is a very recent invention in history.

I'm lesbian.

Do you even know where the label comes from?

I've always been a lesbian.

That is an opinion you hold. I suppose if we hold to that kind of logic, I have always been a Train Robber. For as long as I can remember, I wanted to do what Jesse James and his brother did.

I didn't choose to be, I just felt this way when I started to develop.

Oh really? Al you woman parts somehow redesigned themselves? Or are we talking about your what is in your mind? If you enter this conversation with me, I get to ask rational questions to your choice behaviors.

I could choose to sleep with a man, but I don't really want to. You don't know what you're talking about.

It doesn't seem that you have the rational to say that. I have lived and worked in one of the largest gay communities in America. I could be lying, but that would be a sin. And I have taken the position in these threads to not be someone that supports sin, sinning or "affirming" sinners. It's a Christian thing.

How absurd. Many people have proven that sexual behavior can be avoided for a lifetime. Eating is a matter of survival. Same gender sex acts are completely unnatural. Not due to newly developed propaganda charge of homophobia, but anatomy, biology and physiology speak to the "naturalness" of sexual behavior. And of course the Bible just agrees with science.

Sex can be avoided for an entire lifetime if one so chooses, yes. Of course eating is an act of survival.

Um uh, then I do know what I am talking about. You confirm that.

How can you say what is natural and what is unnatural?

Are you saying that I do not have civil rights? What would be your power to hold that demand?

Because you read about it in an old book where slavery and stoning is legal?

That sounds strikingly anti-semitic. What you are referencing is in the Tanakh. What is commonly known as the Old Testament. And in 21st Century secular society, both slavery and killing people for sexual indiscretion happen quite commonly.

And I am the one who doesn't know what he's talking about?

Also, if we're all part of nature, then how can something possibly be unnatural?

Then so is slavery and stonings. Hmm, you may want to think about your posts before you sling them at me.

If you really knew anything about science, you'd see that homosexuality is perfectly normal and natural.

Oh really? Do you ovulate?

Guess what that means? Hint, in science, it isn't about female to female sexual behavior.

There is no scientific evidence that supports any of the bible's ancient claims.

Oh really? ALL "Jews" are misguided about where they come from as a people? Once again, you may be skirting extremely closely to anti-semitism.

Are you even a Christian? It would hardly be appropriate for a non or anti Christian to define what is and what isn't unChristian. Encouraging someone to engage in sin for a moment or a lifetime is quite clearly, according to Jesus, to be what could be defined as unChristian. Actually as Jesus puts it it is virtually anti-Christian.

If you're not gay, then it's inappropriate for you to say anything negative about homosexuality. See? I'm using your 'logic' against you.

You are not using logic. You are using your morality. I have consistently held that people can engage in gay sex if they so choose. In fact, I have authored an extremely popular thread with ten-thousand plus views about a Gay denomination. My positions here don't concern you at all. YOU are not a Christian, nor are you demanding that gay pride be plied in Christian Churches, or that gay behavior is appropriate for Christians.

And you know what? I'd rather tell someone to be gay than to protect someone's biblical beliefs by keeping quiet.

Of course you would. I expect nothing less.

You're promoting bigotry and ignorance over truth and civility.

Say that while looking in a mirror. I have never once demanded that homosexuals live like Christians. Not even once. Your oh-so typical demands how are they not nothing more than political correctness demanding that Christians submit to gay authority and power over they and their Churches? It is not truthful to to hold the position that same gender sex acts are encouraged in the Bible AND there is no such thing as same gender marriage anywhere supported or "affirmed" anywhere in the Bible from Genesis to Jude.

And I have posted over and over again that "they" are welcomed to ply their religion in their own buildings and on their own addresses. Look up "The Gay Denomination" thread buried probably hundreds of posts down the line by now. It was closed down for the typical bashing reasons. Interesting that the fruit of gay theology is schism and anger huh? Why not build gay Denominations and live happily ever after (?) and allow Christians to live in the historic Churches with their consistent theology that they have dwelled in peacefully for quite some time now? Why the need to force gay pride where it can never fit?

So much for tolerance and diversity from the tolerance and diversity crowd huh? I guess "progressive and liberal" means totalitarianism? I notice with utter fascination that the evangelical left looks, sounds, acts exactly like the secular left. All politically marching in lock-step. How interesting. I guess not all of us fall for propaganda tactics so easy.

And I join the club of Jesus, Peter, John, Jude and Paul quite willingly. Your "anything goes" demands do not square with Christian life. It is the perfect definition of intolerance to demand that Christians submit to gay and/or secular power and authority over their lives, their souls and their Churches. This is the very essence of intolerance.

Christianity should have absolutely no control over political action. Progression should be more important than someone's religious beliefs. How can you honestly assume that we should bend over for the Christians as they take over politics and try to force their religion on us while acting like they're the persecuted and oppressed? You talk of propaganda and lies, yet you've been brainwashed in the delusion of religion. You've been taught that homosexuality is evil, and that civil rights are part of the devil's plan to control the world. You're the essence of intolerance, not progression or people who want gays to marry freely. [/color]

Stop acting like a victim because many might find your remarks hurtful and completely ignorant.

I am a victim. You have defined my Christian beliefs as hateful and bigoted. And the latest American Christians to be persecuted in a major way are the Benham Brothers. When gay pride proponents demand to put you out of business for your Christian beliefs, that is persecution in any sense of the word.

I wouldn't have said anything about it if I didn't care.

And you are a non (or anti) Christian. Your views and beliefs have nothing to do with Christian life ever. You live as you so choose and stop accusing Christians that will not submit to gay authority as the bad guys. If we are bad people then so was Jesus and every other voice in the New Testament. Because . . . "Jesus never said a word about homosexuals OR homosexuality." Nada.

You may think that you're acting on behalf of your god, but you could be making real people's lives worse by thrusting your righteousness upon them.

I am only being honest to the New Testament witness. Nothing more and nothing less. If some people don't like that too bad. It's been that way since John, Jesus and Stephen were killed by people that didn;t like what they believed and taught and lived by.

How do you think it feels to be gay and have someone openly call you a hell-bound sinner who hates god, or something like that?

I haven't a clue. I don't interact with people that say that. I interact with Christians. I have even referred to a Gay activist catholic that dead from AIDS as a "brother in Christ." I can't and won't judge people's souls. That is immutably Christ Jesus that has that authority. I am just to hold to truth as truth.

It's awful, especially if you're a Christian in a Christian family.

By what right do you posses to make a statement about a Christian family? You are not a Christian.

You have no grasp of science, biology, or reason.

And yet I have proven your assertion and accusation wrong effortlessly in this post reply.

Before you spew any more hatred, really think about your religion and the impact it can have.

What are you demanding? Are you demanding that I, as a Christian, must live by your morality and your definition of what hate is? This whole labeling of Christian life as a homophobic hate crime is persecution.

I have patiently watched the rise of gay power over and its turning towards The Church over the last 30-years. I have studied "them" and "it" very carefully.

Here:

My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires.

Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent

and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.

Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this:

to look after orphans and widows in their distress

and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

- James 1

Guess what that means?

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 10 by KCKID]

I can't tell which is worse: Christians who simply thump their bible without reading it, or Christians knowledgeable in it and still following it as a holy text.

Moderator Warning

Posting ad hominems is definitely worse. Please don't refer to groups of people disparaging. Make and defend arguments.

Please review our Rules.

______________

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[99percentatheism]

Danmark[/url]"]

Are you even a Christian? It would hardly be appropriate for a non or anti Christian to define what is and what isn't unChristian.

This is purely personal question, followed by an unsupported claim.
It is a common claim among those who say they speak for Christianity.
And it represents an error in logic.

And then you attack me "personally." Here goes:

No one has ever even attempted to meet this challenge: Present a passage of scripture that you think only a Christian can understand; then let's see if I can explain what it means. Of course one of the problems with this is 'who's going to judge?'

Be very careful. You will be the one dividing who is and who is isn't a Christian. Take "marriage" for exhibit A. Marriage is immutably man and woman/husband and wife in every scriptural reference to the configuration. So, I, for one, have no problem with YOU judging the reality of the error inherent in same sex marriage claiming to be a Christian construct. It has no basis in reality at all. In fact, the incredible machinations that gay pride activists go to attempting to homosexualize scripture is a practice in futility. So you judge that.

This problem is presented in the next paragraph:

The second problem with your false and indefensible claim is that YOU claim to be an authority on what Christianity is.

What an empty strawman you have created. "I" do nothing of the kind. What I do is present what the writers of scripture presented to us all and agree with them. Like I just presented above, there is no such thing as same gender marriage anywhere in the New Testament OR the Tanakh.

You make this claim continually, despite the fact you know that many others who, like you, claim to be Christians and yet they disagree with you.

They do not disagree with me, they disagree with Jesus, Peter, John, Jude, Paul and every other "voice" in the New Testament.

Despite your disagreement with them, can you at least agree that there are many different and conflicting claims about the details of what represents Christianity and that they are all made by those who claim to be Christian?

My positions do not depend on who or what claims to be Christian. They are solidly grounded in what scripture says. That is why I laugh at the charges slung at me by gay activists and others here. I stand before Christ, not a political correctness tribunal. I do not oppse "gay marriage" or anything secular people want to engage in. Just as this kind of pop culture behavior had nothing to do with the Church of the Apostles, it has nothing to do with my life as well. I simply stay to the way, the truth and the life. I do not attend any kind of Church that repels the truth of scripture for pop culture fads.

The truth is, that there is not one person on the entire planet who has been granted the absolute authority to define what a Christian is.

My apologia has nothing to do with anything but a defense of the faith. That there are places called Christian Churches that look no different than a secular gay rights organization is their own stand for their own agenda. My agenda is to stay on the path of Christ and the Apostles. That this is now called a hate crime is no surprise at all. The New Testament and the history of the Apostolic Church of Roman Judea make it clear that we we always be held in contempt by the world and its ways.

Even the Pope, only has authority to declare what the standard is for his fellow Roman Catholics.

OK. I am not a Catholic. In the same bit of logic, gay pride activists do not have the authority to define Bible believing Christians as anything other than Christians. Luckily, finally, even lukewarm "Christians" are starting to wake up to the fact that we are being targeted for persecution because we will not alter the truth for some cultural fad that has developed into a desire and demand to rule over us. Persecution comes with a walk on the narrow road.

[99percentatheism]

Danmark

Since you are in disagreement with other Christians, I suggest you take Your Inquisition to Theology Doctrine & Dogma. It's out of place here in Christian Apologetics.

99%:

That's fascinating. I believe you are a Moderator right? And you don't know the meaning of apologetics? Not one apologia from a pro gay proponent can be supported by one word from anyone or anywhere in the New Testament. So I am not going to be frightened by your demands.

Apologia:

ap·o·lo·gi·a (ăp′ə-l�′jē-ə, -jə)
n.
A formal defense or justification.

The definition you quote is irrelevant, because you failed to define the appropriate term, which is not "apologetics," but "Christian apologetics:"

This is the Christianity AND apologetics section. My placement was accurate.

Christian apologetics (Greek: ἀπολογία, "verbal defence, speech in defence")[1] is a field of Christian theology which aims to present a rational basis for the Christian faith, defending the faith against objections.

OK. I'm humbled by keeping to the faith.

The reason your argument is in the wrong forum is because you are NOT defending the Christian faith against a claim there is no rational basis for the Christian faith.

The gay pride issue is brought to us as if we are not being Christian. Once again, I am only responding to a thread written by someone who isn't me. Blame KCKID for placing HIS thread in the wrong section.

You are defending one particular Christian doctrine as opposed to Christianity itself. Many Christians disagree with you and what appears to be your sole agenda, attacking homosexuality and homosexuals.

I find that laughable. Even before Christ, I find the political correctness that permeates the charges against me as humorous. Since they have no basis or foundation in Christian reality and exist perfectly in the world and its ways, I will be just fine on this issue before the judgment we all must go through.

Your arguments are refuted by other Christians, yet you continue with your failed cause and make the boastful claim that if someone disagrees with you on this point of Christian doctrine, then they are not Christians.

Please prove that charge. I claim confidently that gay pride, gay marriage and gay behavior has no support from scripture. Nothing more. And I am right.

That is why I suggest your battle is with those other Christians, not with those that don't believe the Bible is authority in the first place.

Then move all these gay pride threads. I have no problem with that. I'll dismantle them in the Doctrine section.

Do you deny that there are millions of people who claim to be Christians, but disagree with you on the issue of homosexuality?

I do not deny that there are people that claim to be a Christian that disagrees with scripture on the issue of homosexuality. BTW, I am not the Pope, nor do I play one on TV. If you OR any people who "claim to be a Christian" can produce any scriptures that clearly assert the support for homosexuality anywhere in scripture, please, have at it. Since that request has never been supplied, and never will be,"I" have no problem with how gay activists or anyone else "judges" my positions on the truth of scripture, or me "personally."

[Danmark]

Are you even a Christian? It would hardly be appropriate for a non or anti Christian to define what is and what isn't unChristian.

Danmark:

This is purely personal question, followed by an unsupported claim.
It is a common claim among those who say they speak for Christianity.
And it represents an error in logic.

And then you attack me "personally." Here goes:

No one has ever even attempted to meet this challenge: Present a passage of scripture that you think only a Christian can understand; then let's see if I can explain what it means. Of course one of the problems with this is 'who's going to judge?'

Demonstrate how that was a 'personal attack' or withdraw your claim.


Since you do not you deny that there are millions of people who claim to be Christians, but disagree with you on the issue of homosexuality you have no basis for persisting in your anti gay claims, except that YOUR interpretation is correct, and everyone else is wrong.

[Haven]

I can't remember. If I was raised and encouraged to believe that same gender sex acts were absolutely "equal" and as natural as normal sex I suppose I would have choices brought to me by that environment. The whole gay agenda thing is a very recent invention in history.

Wait, so you're saying that if you were raised in a home that wasn't virulently homophobic, you'd be gay?

I was raised in an evangelical Christian home. My parents absolutely did not accept LGBT rights and thought homosexuality was a choice. I wanted to choose to be straight, and tried to be involved in heterosexual relationships. I was still gay, regardless of my desperately wanting to be straight. I hid my orientation from my family and most others for years due to their religious beliefs and my own issues with being gay. When I finally came out, my family accepted me for who I am. That, in my opinion, is the true picture of Christian love, not the disowning that so many "Christian soldiers" give to their gay kids.

How can you even say it's a choice, when you know that it isn't?

I am a victim. You have defined my Christian beliefs as hateful and bigoted. And the latest American Christians to be persecuted in a major way are the Benham Brothers. When gay pride proponents demand to put you out of business for your Christian beliefs, that is persecution in any sense of the word.

Any time you tell LGBTQ people that they are inferior, evil, worth less than heterosexuals, and deserve to be tortured in hell for eternity simply for being who we are, you are propagating hatred and bigotry.

The Benham Brothers deserved to be sanctioned for their homophobia in exactly the same way as Donald Sterling was for his racism. There is no place in society for racism and homophobia. One is free to express her or his racist or homophobic opinions, but s/he should expect sanctions from civilized society for her/his hate.

And you are a non (or anti) Christian.

I am not an anti-Christian (I have no problem with the Christian faith and in fact find it, in many ways, beneficial to society), but I am very much anti-fundamentalist. I oppose any kind of fundamentalism: Christian, Muslim, Hindu, it doesn't matter. Any form of religion that puts blind and dogmatic obedience to some ancient anthology over the lives and well-beings of real human beings is a pestilence. It is religious fundamentalism that causes LGBTQ youth bullying and suicides, terrorist bombings, violent subjugation of women, and other atrocities perpetrated against the innocent, and it makes me absolutely sick. Fundamentalism is a cancer on the human race.

[Princess Luna On The Moon]

[Replying to post 1 by 99percentatheism]

Odd, you prove right away I do know what I'm talking about.

How?

Because I am a human being and not a lower animal.

Human beings are just animals with higher cognitive abilities.

I can't remember. If I was raised and encouraged to believe that same gender sex acts were absolutely "equal" and as natural as normal sex I suppose I would have choices brought to me by that environment. The whole gay agenda thing is a very recent invention in history.

I was raised to believe that homosexuality was a sin, but I left the decision. Being raised to believe in something doesn't mean you have to keep that idea for life.

Do you even know where the label comes from?

Yes, I do. What about it?

That is an opinion you hold. I suppose if we hold to that kind of logic, I have always been a Train Robber. For as long as I can remember, I wanted to do what Jesse James and his brother did.

What are you talking about? What 'opinion?' If you said you were Jesse James, that would be illogical for a multitude of reasons. Me calling myself lesbian is not an opinion because I'm attracted to other girls. Actually, if you called yourself Jesse James, that's not really an opinion, either. It's a ludicrous claim.

Oh really? Al you woman parts somehow redesigned themselves? Or are we talking about your what is in your mind? If you enter this conversation with me, I get to ask rational questions to your choice behaviors.

Once again, what are you talking about? I even said, "I felt this way," indicating an internal feeling about liking other girls.

Um uh, then I do know what I am talking about. You confirm that.

Because you said a few things that were painfully obvious?

Are you saying that I do not have civil rights? What would be your power to hold that demand?

I asked you, "How can you say what is natural and what is unnatural?" I didn't say anything about civil rights nor did I mention any held power I have obtained to take yours away.

That sounds strikingly anti-semitic. What you are referencing is in the Tanakh. What is commonly known as the Old Testament. And in 21st Century secular society, both slavery and killing people for sexual indiscretion happen quite commonly.

And I am the one who doesn't know what he's talking about?

First off, I'm an anti-theist, against all religion. Second, I know very well what the Old Testament is. Christians claim to believe the entire bible is accurate and god's perfect word. You know, unless something bad is mentioned from the OT. Then, suddenly, the OT is no longer relevant to modern Christian belief.

Then so is slavery and stonings. Hmm, you may want to think about your posts before you sling them at me.

I never said they weren't natural. I also never said that everything natural is necessarily good.

Oh really? Do you ovulate?

Guess what that means? Hint, in science, it isn't about female to female sexual behavior.

Just because I ovulate doesn't mean my only biological function is to have children. I've reached a high enough level of cognitive function to superimpose my own will over the instincts brought upon by nature.

Oh really? ALL "Jews" are misguided about where they come from as a people? Once again, you may be skirting extremely closely to antisemitism.

Once again, anti-theist, but I'm suddenly antisemitic because I point out that their holy book is fictional?

You are not using logic. You are using your morality. I have consistently held that people can engage in gay sex if they so choose. In fact, I have authored an extremely popular thread with ten-thousand plus views about a Gay denomination. My positions here don't concern you at all. YOU are not a Christian, nor are you demanding that gay pride be plied in Christian Churches, or that gay behavior is appropriate for Christians.

That is logic. If you say I can't criticize Christianity because I'm not Christian, then you can't make claims about homosexuality since you're not gay. I'm mimicking the logical fallacy. And there's nothing you can really do to stop people from having homosexual sex. I admit I'm new and don't know about much of this site. But, you come off as very close-minded. It's not fair to act one way, but when pressed, say something different.

I am a victim. You have defined my Christian beliefs as hateful and bigoted. And the latest American Christians to be persecuted in a major way are the Benham Brothers. When gay pride proponents demand to put you out of business for your Christian beliefs, that is persecution in any sense of the word.

The United States is about 70% Christian. You're in the vast majority. But, I think it's wrong to put someone out of business for being a bigot. I also think you and anyone else has the right to say whatever you want as long as I have the right to disagree.

And you are a non (or anti) Christian. Your views and beliefs have nothing to do with Christian life ever. You live as you so choose and stop accusing Christians that will not submit to gay authority as the bad guys. If we are bad people then so was Jesus and every other voice in the New Testament. Because . . . "Jesus never said a word about homosexuals OR homosexuality." Nada.

I'm also anti-hindu, anti-mormon, and anti-islam. I don't want anyone to 'submit' to a gay authority, whatever that is. I simply oppose bigots who try and ban or hinder its progression because an ancient book says it's naughty.

I haven't a clue. I don't interact with people that say that. I interact with Christians. I have even referred to a Gay activist catholic that dead from AIDS as a "brother in Christ." I can't and won't judge people's souls. That is immutably Christ Jesus that has that authority. I am just to hold to truth as truth.

Humans souls probably don't exist.

By what right do you posses to make a statement about a Christian family? You are not a Christian.

I was an Evangelical Christian for 13 years.

And yet I have proven your assertion and accusation wrong effortlessly in this post reply.

No, you really didn't.

What are you demanding? Are you demanding that I, as a Christian, must live by your morality and your definition of what hate is? This whole labeling of Christian life as a homophobic hate crime is persecution.

I have patiently watched the rise of gay power over and its turning towards The Church over the last 30-years. I have studied "them" and "it" very carefully.

Do whatever you want, but I'll openly disagree if I see the need. It's not persecution, it's the truth. Christians themselves may be civil and kind, but the religion based upon the bible is not. It's vile, and horrible, and promotes bigotry and oppression for anyone who does not believe.

Why do you act homophobic, to then act like you're really not, just to start using terms like 'gay power?' You sound like a conspiracy theorist nutjob who thinks gay people will conquer the globe and kill us all. If I'm wrong (which I know you think I am), then elaborate.

[Princess Luna On The Moon]

I've probably said some against-the-rules stuff towards 99percent. Sorry about that. I sometimes get too heated and forget what I'm doing.